TONY MAMOUZELOS
Sapling
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- 25
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Is it a good time to do a drastic restyling of my Japanese red maple?
Heavy pruning this time of year??
- Thread starter TONY MAMOUZELOS
- Start date
aml1014
Masterpiece
Tough to say when we don know where you live, update your profile and itll be easier to help. Generally early spring is the best time to hard prune deciduous trees.
Aaron
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Immediately after leaf drop is a good time to prune to set the 'bones' of acer palmatum. Parenchyma are still active, so the tree will compartmentalize the wounds before dormancy has completely set in. Of course you could do this sooner, but it is easier to tell what you're doing without leaves in the way (i.e., one can defoliate to do this earlier).
In spring, before bud break is equally good, but you may get some sap 'bleeding'. All maples dump sugar into the xylem lumens at this time; a trunk pressure builds up by osmosis - it is the same phenomenon by which sugar maple sap is gathered in the spring for producing maple syrup (i.e., 'bleeding' does not harm your tree and is nothing to worry about).
In spring, before bud break is equally good, but you may get some sap 'bleeding'. All maples dump sugar into the xylem lumens at this time; a trunk pressure builds up by osmosis - it is the same phenomenon by which sugar maple sap is gathered in the spring for producing maple syrup (i.e., 'bleeding' does not harm your tree and is nothing to worry about).
TONY MAMOUZELOS
Sapling
- Messages
- 25
- Reaction score
- 11
Thanks for the info!
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
I'd say no. Not a good time...
Early spring is best
Early spring is best
music~maker
Shohin
I've found that if I make major cuts on an acer in early spring, just as the buds are starting to swell, and seal the cuts with the clay-type paste, I don't really get much in the way of sap leaking at all. If you wait until the first flush of growth starts to come in, well, then you can have a bloodbath on your hands. It can be like opening a faucet.
I know some people swear by fall pruning, but it seems to bring the additional risk of die back during the winter. I've asked multiple times for somebody to explain to me why fall pruning is better than spring pruning, but have yet to get a complete answer.
My previous experiments with fall pruning just seemed to add more risk without any of the up-sides. Pruning in the spring requires timing it correctly, but I've had major wounds heal over in just a season or two. Back-budding still seems to happen, and it doesn't really seem to slow down the tree from getting started as long as you're making a small number of larger cuts rather than a large number of smaller cuts, if that makes sense. You don't necessarily want to be cutting off all your buds just as the tree's getting started for the spring. That can be counter-productive. If I want to do that kind of pruning, I wait until after the first flush of growth has come in and hardened off. Then I make all the small cuts.
I have quite a few data points on spring pruning, but not as many on fall pruning. I'm planning to prune a few of my maples once the leaves change color just so I decent have some examples to study.
If anyone has experience doing both spring and fall pruning, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter ... which do you prefer? what are the pros and cons of each in your experience? is one definitely right or wrong, and why?
music~maker
Shohin
Hey Tony,
If I were you, I'd post a picture and tell us where you live. You'll get much more specific advice that way.
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
It says Long Island NY on his profile...
If I'm not mistaken.
music~maker
Shohin
Ah, so it does. It wasn't listed next to his comment so I assumed it wasn't set. A pic of the tree would still be helpful.
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
I prefer to do major pruning in February or March before the buds begin to swell
music~maker
Shohin
Have you pruned at other times of the year as a comparison? I would love to collect some more data points on pros/cons.
The things I'm most curious about
- Difference in healing rates (if any) from major cuts made in fall/late winter/early spring
- Differences in potential die back (if any) from major cuts made in fall/late winter/early spring
- Any differences in back-budding or growth rates for the season between the three.
- Any other issues that come up when you prune at one time vs. another
I'm guessing there probably haven't been a lot of proper scientific studies conducted on this, so anecdotal results are totally fine here. Also, although I have my preference, I'm not trying to advocate for one way over the over, just trying to get to the bottom of this one. I may just end up creating a separate thread and use it to document what I find out over time.
From what I can tell, the actual answer is probably "all three are fine, but each comes with pros & cons and possible timing issues". I'm completely OK with this answer if that's the case, but I want to be able to articulate & document the specific pros/cons for each. That way, choosing the pruning time-frame just becomes another tool in the toolbox.
The main reason I haven't done fall pruning much historically is that I'm concerned about die back. And the main reason I wait until the buds start to swell is because then the branches re-gain their flexibility and I can wire them at the same time without worrying about snapping them as easily. This is especially true for things like kiyohime, but even standard acer gets a little brittle during the winter.
Also, it has always seemed logical to me to let the intact plant use whatever branches and buds it had to at least start waking up before chopping at it, but I'll admit I don't really have much evidence to support that one other than a whole bunch of plants that I've successfully pruned in that time-frame that didn't seem to have any issues.
Any data points you can add here? Thoughts?
Cheers
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
I have not done a detailed analysis so I can only give you my observations in so far as I can remember.
I have pruned regular A. palmatum in fall. The tree didn't die but the wounds didn't start healing until spring. I dont recall whether the healing, once started took longer.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I've been hard pruning maples in early spring for years. Hard pruning in autumn can lead to some difficulties--as has been said. Pruning into old wood can stimulate back budding. That's a very bad thing in the fall, as the tree wastes energy on growth that can't earn its keep. The tree expends energy it is trying to store and get nothing in return as new growth is killed off by frosts and freezes. Additionally, twigs and limbs can die back over winter if they're cut too late.
Spring pruning gives the tree the maximum amount of time to heal wounds and new buds stimulated by the pruning will survive, increasing ramification. I stop hard pruning on most stuff in late August.
BTW, to prevent sap "bleeding" in the spring from hard pruning, prune roots first. Trees can't "bleed to death." That's an animal thing.
Spring pruning gives the tree the maximum amount of time to heal wounds and new buds stimulated by the pruning will survive, increasing ramification. I stop hard pruning on most stuff in late August.
BTW, to prevent sap "bleeding" in the spring from hard pruning, prune roots first. Trees can't "bleed to death." That's an animal thing.
Giga
Masterpiece
I don't prune right after leaf fall - I do it at the start of fall in my area. Things are still in leaf and active, usually at the end of Sept and the start of October. By the time cold weather gets here all wounds have heal and are fine. I have also done major pruning as well but get special treatment in winter(I don't recommend it). Still the best time is in spring and most of the fall pruning I do is to get a good winter image and nothing very drastic, for deciduous anyway.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
From what I see at work fall is the best time to cut a tree down. Less chance it will regrow than if it's cut off in the fall.
music~maker
Shohin
From previous conversations with @Adair M , I seem to recall he waits until the leaves start to change color to prevent the tree from putting out growth it can't keep. That's what I meant above by "possible timing issues". So I think that one might be addressable with correct timing. I'd love to get Adair's take on all this, since I know he prefers fall pruning.
Yeah, that's definitely been my experience too.
I once foolishly chopped a very immature maple sapling in mid-summer (it was before I knew the root pruning trick, but shouldn't have cut it regardless), and that thing leaked sap continuously for 3-4 weeks until it died. I felt really bad about that one. I know it wasn't bleeding out or anything, but it was definitely a wound it could not recover from. Never seen anything like that on a mature tree, though.
For a more developed tree, I defoliate the deciduous leaves after the fall color peak. Then cut back.
This isn't a "hard pruning", but a cut back. To maintain shape. Any significant cuts would get cut paste. Make sure to cut back to a live bud. That prevents dieback.
This isn't a "hard pruning", but a cut back. To maintain shape. Any significant cuts would get cut paste. Make sure to cut back to a live bud. That prevents dieback.
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Could this be where people are getting confused, terminology? That, perhaps, and the actual timing?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Climate can make a significant difference. Places with mild winters are more forgiving. If you live in an area that sees deep winter cold, you might want to rethink fall pruning, especially on maples.
music~maker
Shohin
That's a really good point. I think there are actually a lot of variables in play here - how much you are pruning, what zone you live in, the precise timing of when you prune, etc. That could easily account for the variety of opinions on this topic. The kinds of cuts you use to build a trunk from scratch are often going to be far more severe than for maintenance pruning, for example, and I'd probably do that one in the spring to get a more predictable result. That's a very different thing from light hedge pruning in the fall.
