Walter Pall's new book.

Page 287. Does anyone else think that the top of the tree in that photo looks suspiciously edited (copy paste). I found the same image on Walter's website which was edited in the same way.

Adair M said:

Thanks!

And that's plenty of evidence for me to NOT buy the book! Lol!!!

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The key word here is "soil". Soil isn't used in current bonsai cultivation -hence you don't need to sieve soil for bonsai.

You need to get the book before deciding you don't like what one sentence from it says.

MichaelS said:

It is necessary if you use soil (which I do from time to time) So...... that's wrong.


Yes I pretty much agree with that. However akadama is still a very good product. It is still better to use than high fired materials for some tree. Particularly deciduous trees in small pots. So...that's half wrong



You don't HAVE to use them but most manufactured controlled release ferts are too high in N. Longer internodes and bigger leaves. Fine in the development stage but not for finished trees. You would need to carefully balance the NPK ratio to get similar results. The Japanese have had access to manufactured fertilizers pretty much as long as we have. (in fact they manufacture one of the higher quality slow release formulations - Nutricote). After the war they used them. They went back cakes. The very fact that they are slow to work is the one of the main points.
So....That's wrong


I agree with this. however, chloride is needed in relatively tiny amounts. So...that's half wrong


I've already proved that is wrong. BTW, NO substrate is devoid of microorganisms. They are everywhere just waiting to be fed. (including on the mouse you are touching) So..... that's wrong.


Not a very good start I'd say!

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Is the author "wrong" or do you just not agree with him? Perhaps you are "wrong" and he is right?

armetisius said:

I repeat -- I am not impressed.

Yes it is a quick read; yes it contains information on ornamental horticulture production.
And there is the rub. In all honesty it seems as though this book is a good set of lecture
notes on the subject that have been high lighted for the finals study session. There are no
footnotes; bibliography; sources cited; not even a curriculum vitae; merely statements.
Well arranged and progressive in the information level through each topic. But I abhor
"Take them or leave them." For the "challenged" among us I could see its use. Most every
point covered could be found on this board as stated above. Are there any Earth shattering
epiphanies? No. I spent a great deal of time in a state of mind that I'll call "duh big red truck".
Perhaps would be an excellent suggestion for all the newbe questioners. "Read this and call
me if he uses a word you don't understand."
2)
I don't know either.

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coh said:

Thanks - very insightful! It would be nice if there were some citations provided, so people could go back to the original source (if desired) for items that seen questionable.

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Problem is that there is citations provided and you can use the citations as a bibliography. His CV is on the last printed page in the back of the book. It's all there one just needs to open their eyes and look.

Mac In Oak Ridge said:

Problem is that there is citations provided and you can use the citations as a bibliography. His CV is on the last printed page in the back of the book. It's all there one just needs to open their eyes and look.

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What do you call it when you DO read the citations and they DON'T support a claim that he makes in the book?

Look - I give him credit. Writing a book like that is a tough thing to do and there's not a lot of reward for it at the end. Some things were good in the book and I liked how it was written in the question-answer form. It was clear, concise, and easy to follow. It caused me to question a few things that I followed up on. So all that was good.

The main problem that I have with the book is that there are claims that I did follow through and research his references. I believe that several of those are, at best, not supported by the work he cited. At worst, one could argue exactly the OPPOSITE conclusion to his claims from the SAME reference. That is not good.

I assume that he included his CV so that he could argue from a position of authority. But when he makes obvious and demonstrably questionable arguments he's just adding to "the enormous sea of information and often misinformation" that Walter rightly observes is out there in the preface. And he becomes one of the experts who "have used the wrong, or at least questionable, practices for too long".

But mostly, I wonder where his trees are. None in his book. None on his Facebook page. No website with pictures of his trees. When I google his name I can't find a single tree attributed to him. Does he grow bonsai trees? Since he's discovered the horticultural truth about bonsai, shouldn't he have some great ones floating around? Maybe one great one? Or at least one mediocre one?

Scott

markyscott said:

None on his Facebook page. No website with pictures of his trees. When I google his name I can't find a single tree attributed to him. Does he grow bonsai trees? Since he's discovered the horticultural truth about bonsai, shouldn't he have some great ones floating around? Maybe one great one? Or at least one mediocre one?

Scott

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??? - google - "walter pall bonsai trees"
first link - http://www.walter-pall.de/
second link - http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/

These are also in his signature on this site. Frankly, and I don't mean this as an insult to you nor as a defense of pall, I question your lack of ability in finding these resources, and your apparent lack of google-fu makes me question some of your own statements. I haven't read the book and I appreciate your insight otherwise.

Solange said:

??? - google - "walter pall bonsai trees"
first link - http://www.walter-pall.de/
second link - http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/

These are also in his signature on this site. Frankly, and I don't mean this as an insult to you nor as a defense of pall, I question your lack of ability in finding these resources, and your apparent lack of google-fu makes me question some of your own statements. I haven't read the book and I appreciate your insight otherwise.

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Perhaps you're not aware. Walter Pall is NOT the author of the book. So if I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about Walter Pall's trees - Walter has many great trees that I've admired for many years.

I'm talking about the author's trees. Although Walter wrote the preface, Larry Morton wrote the book. He did not show any of his own trees grown with the techniques he promotes - instead he chose to show Walter's trees. Why? If you can, please point me to Larry Morton's trees - I'd love to see them. Maybe he has a great garden full of beautiful bonsai that I'm just not aware of. Or maybe he doesn't grow bonsai. Maybe I'm the only person it matters to, but I don't think nursery culture translates 1:1 to bonsai culture and I'd feel a lot better about his claims if he actually grew bonsai trees. But perhaps he does and someone can set me straight.

Scott

markyscott said:

I'm not talking about Walter Pall's trees, I'm talking about the author. Walter wrote the preface. Larry Morton wrote the book. Please point me to Larry Morton's trees - I'd love to see them.

Scott

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Cheers! I hoped i was missing something, thanks for the correction. It is a curious thing huh?

Solange said:

Cheers! I hoped i was missing something, thanks for the correction. It is a curious thing huh?

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Maybe it's nothing. It's not my main complaint about the book.

Stuff like this and the posts that follow is.

Armetisius had the quote of the day in that conversation:
"It has about as much to do with bonsai as the color underwear I have on today does"

Scott

Mac In Oak Ridge said:

The key word here is "soil". Soil isn't used in current bonsai cultivation -hence you don't need to sieve soil for bonsai. You need to get the book before deciding you don't like what one sentence from it says.

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Well I do have the book and have read thru it.
Biggest waste of money I have seen since the
"Fabulous Portable Coat Rack" -- a ten penny nail with instructions on how to drive it.

There is a contest going on right now. I had offered,
before I got the book, to make a copy of it a prize in that contest.
Now?
If they want it fine. But if given the choice?
I'll send them a fifty and call it all even.

markyscott said:

. . . but I don't think nursery culture translates 1:1 to bonsai culture . . . Scott

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As someone involved in both, you are more correct than you can imagine.

If you want a basic book on ornamental horticulture--what you call shrubs/trees for use in a landscape--
there are tons of them available (digitally) for free thru Google books OR much more cheaply than
this if you really just want one to put on the book shelf.
I do not know Mr. Morton; nor will I shill for him.

Mr. Pall has even stated that his trees' old photos were purchased from a photo service and that he did write
the "forward" and only agreed with about 50% of the book.
Once again; if I make the statement that "water is wet" at least half of you would agree with it. Much the same
with this work.
I have made myself very clear on this matter. Only the most rank novice or laziest of readers will find much benefit to
these edited notes.
I have found absolutely nothing in this book
that cannot be found on this site for the price of your time.
Now whether that speaks positively for this site or negatively for this book
I leave up to the reader/user of both.

Mac In Oak Ridge said:

Is the author "wrong" or do you just not agree with him? Perhaps you are "wrong" and he is right?

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I like complete and utter accuracy. Anything less is not as valuable and necessitates obtaining information elsewhere. If I am not sure of a subject I will not comment on it.
The possibility that I am wrong is of course always there.

MichaelS said:

I like complete and utter accuracy. Anything less is not as valuable and necessitates obtaining information elsewhere. If I am not sure of a subject I will not comment on it.
The possibility that I am wrong is of course always there.

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I saw the book, drove a lot of miles to see it, and did not buy it.

Vance Wood said:

I saw the book, drove a lot of miles to see it, and did not buy it.

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Interesting. What caused you not to buy it, Vance?

I knew the text was not written by Walter but I thought the photos would be first class. They were not, they looked like they had been run off a computer on cheap paper. I was very disappointed. The price there was $70.00, not happening.

I bought it from Amazon for $36.83 plus postage. There is another "like new" copy there for the same price.

Mac In Oak Ridge said:

I bought it from Amazon for $36.83 plus postage. There is another "like new" copy there for the same price.

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I finally decided to just get one of those "used" copies and see for myself, since there is so much conflicting information. One person says there are no citations, someone else says there are. So I'll find out for myself.

I did peruse a copy at the National Show and was not impressed. The photos were poor quality as I noted previously, and as Vance noted...you can get better images on line. I didn't think to check the bibliography/citations at the time.

Will give me something to look at during the long, cold winter months coming up.

coh said:

I finally decided to just get one of those "used" copies and see for myself, since there is so much conflicting information. One person says there are no citations, someone else says there are. So I'll find out for myself.

I did peruse a copy at the National Show and was not impressed. The photos were poor quality as I noted previously, and as Vance noted...you can get better images on line. I didn't think to check the bibliography/citations at the time.

Will give me something to look at during the long, cold winter months coming up.

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And read the citations. There was a thread where someone was referencing a study done on using cut sealants, and referenced a study that concluded that sealants had no effect.

Well, I did some research and found that the types of injuries they tested on forestry trees were in no way similiar to they types of injuries we impart on bonsai, and were also species of trees that aren't good for bonsai. And the sealant was not similiar to the type(s) we use for bonsai.

Adair M said:

And read the citations. There was a thread where someone was referencing a study done on using cut sealants, and referenced a study that concluded that sealants had no effect.

Well, I did some research and found that the types of injuries they tested on forestry trees were in no way similiar to they types of injuries we impart on bonsai, and were also species of trees that aren't good for bonsai. And the sealant was not similiar to the type(s) we use for bonsai.

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I suspect that is the case for a lot of what is presented as "truth" in the book, and think I said earlier...it's probably a summary of results from forestry studies, the container/nursery industry, etc. Plus, where are his trees that have been treated this way?

So the book arrived today. A quick glance found that there are about 26 citations provided to support the 501 principles. That's a ratio of almost 20:1. I was hoping for maybe 6:1...

Just in case anyone was wondering!

[QUOTE="my nellie, post: 375540, "A very different bonsai book - Larry Morton's new book is now available... ...On the side the book is full of bonsai images which are all my photographs."
I think it is obvious this is not a book of Mr. Pall as an author or am I wrong?[/QUOTE]

Just borrowed a copy of Morton's book. A friend described it as "bonsai for nihilists," in that his advice is given in the negative: this is wrong, that's a myth, this information was cutting edge 50 years ago etc. etc. Mr. Pall is clearly not the author, as is clearly stated in the description. What I have gotten out of this book is some excellent information on the importance of sound horticultural practices, quite apart from bonsai-specific techniques. Morton is coming at it from someone trained in plant science to maximize success in the nursery trade. That world depends on maximum growth at maximun speed for maximum production. Bonsai is something else again. My turnover rate is mostly the result of not taking sound horticultural practices seriously.
My beef with the photos of Walter's trees is, I believe, more the result of book production values in order to make it affordable than any shortcomings in the photos themselves. There's certainly no problem with the quality of his trees! (IMO, o' course)