Intelligent conversation of the Literati

Velodog2 · Dec 29, 2016

just.wing.it said:
......but I'd say no, not bunjin

Ohhhhhh ... I dunno. This one could be debated endlessly, but it's more bunjin to me than anything else. A little slight curve or two would help perhaps, and maybe a more typical pot style (although I love the one it's in), or maybe even a little less foliage. But getting back to the "feels", this feels bunjin. And it meets my negative space ratio criteria ...

That elusive deciduous literati to me is not particularly old or tortured but is represented better by the understory tree at the edge of a wood that slants out and up trying to escape the overshadowing of its taller neighbors. They are represented most often here in Maryland by Redbuds, or sometimes Dogwoods. I looooove those trees! And this one too. So elegant. They are literati to me.

Tycoss · Dec 29, 2016

I'd certainly say no to bunjin/literati. This tree is certainly thin and graceful, but not timeworn or humble. It is still a young, proud tree. Like a playful young girl, rather than a wise and impoverished old monk. I love the tree, just communicates a different character than literati.

Djtommy · Dec 29, 2016

I quite like that display, very nice pot.
Bunjin? Well to me something like this is walking the line between bonsai and ikebana. Do i like it? Yes i do.

Tycoss · Dec 29, 2016

Here, the trees that most often take on the literati form among broadleaf trees are trembling aspen. I feel that, particularly with bare branches, they communicate traditional literati attributes more closely than the above maple, for example.
I have been told that it is essentially impossible for a deciduous tree to effectively represent true bunjin, but I get a similar feel from some of these. Anyone else have thoughts on using non conifers in literati style.

sorce · Dec 30, 2016

coh said:
After my last post about how literati/bunjin style trees often evoke the feeling of an old tree that has struggled to survive, I started thinking about the maple that @Owen Reich displayed at the 2014 National Exhibition. A photo, from Jonas Dupuich's blog (https://bonsaitonight.com/2014/10/14/shohin-bonsai-at-the-4th-us-national-bonsai-exhibition/), is shown below. To me, this was one of the most striking and evocative trees at the show. It's not an old specimen, in fact, to me it feels like a young tree. But there was just something about its graceful, elegant appearance that struck a chord with me. Many others said the same. Maybe it reminded me of a place I'd been, a cool spot on a hot summer day. I'm still not sure, but I loved it then, and seeing the photo brings back the same feeling.

But...is it literati/bunjin? Slanting? Something else? Does it matter?

View attachment 127416

It's the pot....

Like dude said the small round sets them off....

Pots work!

Sorce

ghues · Dec 30, 2016

MichaelS said:
I think literati is more trees which have been forced to grow that way due to environment rather than grow that way naturally

Michael, perhaps you could elaborate on this......to me (qualifier- working in forestry for 40 years).....trees growing naturally are constrained by its environment..... which when grouped within a baseline of soils, latitude, altitude and thus environmental conditions is defined as biogeoclimatic conditions.
The trees (forest-ecosystem) are well adapted over time to their natural habitats and when one looks at the extremes (very wet and poor/almost inadequate nutritional levels to very dry poor, thin soils with limited nutritional value ) one can find many examples of bunjin.....for me anyway.
I have collected many yamadori which contain naturally defined bunjin forms (from both extremes mentioned above) and we (local club) examined a very thin example which most called young in age.....however when a slice from a removed branch showed it was well over 60 years old.....the bark was still smooth but for the area it was collected, all the (shore pine) have that characteristic, whereas in another location on our Island the shore pine have cork like bark at a much earlier age.
Cheers Graham

wireme · Dec 30, 2016

Tycoss said:
View attachment 127435 Here, the trees that most often take on the literati form among broadleaf trees are trembling aspen. I feel that, particularly with bare branches, they communicate traditional literati attributes more closely than the above maple, for example.
I have been told that it is essentially impossible for a deciduous tree to effectively represent true bunjin, but I get a similar feel from some of these. Anyone else have thoughts on using non conifers in literati style.

I don't know, looks like all the examples shown so far are conifers.

I've got this plant as a prospect though, a lonicera native to our area.
I may be losing the upper portion, it's gotten very weak. I think the lower part in the second pic can still be fun enough on its own.

Solange · Dec 30, 2016

The people of the phillipines and indonesia rock out with their pots out on some really nice non-conifer literati. I like that honeysuckle you have there!

Josh88 · Dec 30, 2016

coh said:
After my last post about how literati/bunjin style trees often evoke the feeling of an old tree that has struggled to survive, I started thinking about the maple that @Owen Reich displayed at the 2014 National Exhibition. A photo, from Jonas Dupuich's blog (https://bonsaitonight.com/2014/10/14/shohin-bonsai-at-the-4th-us-national-bonsai-exhibition/), is shown below. To me, this was one of the most striking and evocative trees at the show. It's not an old specimen, in fact, to me it feels like a young tree. But there was just something about its graceful, elegant appearance that struck a chord with me. Many others said the same. Maybe it reminded me of a place I'd been, a cool spot on a hot summer day. I'm still not sure, but I loved it then, and seeing the photo brings back the same feeling.

But...is it literati/bunjin? Slanting? Something else? Does it matter?

View attachment 127416

I really like this composition, and I think it speaks volumes to the creator's artistry. This tree could clearly be in a much smaller pot and create a more traditional composition, but using this elongated pot and moss covered soil, you want to walk out on that soft grass and sit under this tree. It becomes incredibly inviting in the way it is laid out and the feelings it evokes.

wireme · Dec 30, 2016

Solange said:
The people of the phillipines and indonesia rock out with their pots out on some really nice non-conifer literati. I like that honeysuckle you have there!

I'll bet they do, probably some nice buttonwoods or similar in the southern states too?

Thanks, glad you like it. It's only been wired once and largely ignored for the last couple years since. Should I try to keep the top going? It sure wants to dieback but maybe if I suppress the lower growth as much as I dare for a season or two I can regain some strength up there.

milehigh_7 · Dec 30, 2016

I keep coming back to this question that Al asked back a few pages... It seems like we are boxing a shadow here... He said:

Smoke said:
Are the trees the Literati or are the people that look and feel them the Literati? Maybe the trees are Bunjin?

Now back in the day I did quite a bit of study in the world of Ancient Mediterranean cultures and literature. In the course of that study, I briefly touched on Plato. What we may be dealing with is somewhat of an 'allegory of the cave'. We all sit here on this website saying "I see a Literati!" but really we are but prisoners in the cave until we understand what is the form casting the shadow...

https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

Solange · Dec 30, 2016

wireme said:
I'll bet they do, probably some nice buttonwoods or similar in the southern states too?

Thanks, glad you like it. It's only been wired once and largely ignored for the last couple years since. Should I try to keep the top going? It sure wants to dieback but maybe if I suppress the lower growth as much as I dare for a season or two I can regain some strength up there.

I think it could work with or without the top. Even if the top goes you don't have to get rid of it entirely, you could have a crazy jin out of that.

Solange · Dec 30, 2016

milehigh_7 said:
I keep coming back to this question that Al asked back a few pages... It seems like we are boxing a shadow here... He said:

Now back in the day I did quite a bit of study in the world of Ancient Mediterranean cultures and literature. In the course of that study, I briefly touched on Plato. What we may be dealing with is somewhat of an 'allegory of the cave'. We all sit here on this website saying "I see a Literati!" but really we are but prisoners in the cave until we understand what is the form casting the shadow...

https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

This thread echoes heavily of the "rules" of bonsai thread where everyone dived into deep end of the "what is art?" pool. We will never conclusively answer what a literati form is. It will always be in the eye of the beholder. The same as all the standard tree forms, and even the discussion of "is this tree a bonsai?" itself. We must reach these conclusions for ourselves, and make peace with our own interpretations. Somewhere in the sweet spot of the venn diagram we can probably mostly agree that this tree or that tree is literati. In the meantime I'm off to look at porn.

just.wing.it · Dec 30, 2016

Solange said:
We will never conclusively answer what a literati form is. It will always be in the eye of the beholder

Bingo!
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

MichaelS · Dec 30, 2016

ghues said:
Michael, perhaps you could elaborate on this......to me (qualifier- working in forestry for 40 years).....trees growing naturally are constrained by its environment..... which when grouped within a baseline of soils, latitude, altitude and thus environmental conditions is defined as biogeoclimatic conditions.
The trees (forest-ecosystem) are well adapted over time to their natural habitats and when one looks at the extremes (very wet and poor/almost inadequate nutritional levels to very dry poor, thin soils with limited nutritional value ) one can find many examples of bunjin.....for me anyway.
I have collected many yamadori which contain naturally defined bunjin forms (from both extremes mentioned above) and we (local club) examined a very thin example which most called young in age.....however when a slice from a removed branch showed it was well over 60 years old.....the bark was still smooth but for the area it was collected, all the (shore pine) have that characteristic, whereas in another location on our Island the shore pine have cork like bark at a much earlier age.
Cheers Graham

Hi Graham,

I meant trees which have been forced to grow in a particular way due to environmental pressures instead of how they would grow if those pressures did not exist. Eg, a pine on a cliff buffeted by strong winds and growing in poor dry soil or the same pine in a well watered garden with no competition....as opposed to a tree which normally grows in the ''bungin'' type form (with only branches at the top, eg; a Stone pine or an old Eucalyptus which naturally grow that way wherever they are.

Tycoss · Dec 30, 2016

wireme said:
I don't know, looks like all the examples shown so far are conifers.

I've got this plant as a prospect though, a lonicera native to our area.
I may be losing the upper portion, it's gotten very weak. I think the lower part in the second pic can still be fun enough on its own. View attachment 127451 View attachment 127452

To me, all the drama and character are in the second picture. I think it is very much a literati tree, as much as most of the conifers shown so far. I would put it in a smaller, simpler, more rugged looking pot and reduce that straight leader. Would love to have it on my bench.

Smoke · Dec 30, 2016

wireme said:
I don't know, looks like all the examples shown so far are conifers.

I've got this plant as a prospect though, a lonicera native to our area.
I may be losing the upper portion, it's gotten very weak. I think the lower part in the second pic can still be fun enough on its own.

Ficus, boug, ume, ume, ume.

Tycoss · Dec 30, 2016

The first and third use are wonderful. I think it is because the character of the bark supports the rugged shapes of the trunks. I assume these are Japanese?

Grant Hamby · Dec 30, 2016

I feel less confident now than ever to attempt a literati/bunjin style, but I love them now more than ever. I like art that challenges my narrow idea of what art is. That's how it becomes less narrow.

Picasso originally produced very representational works and mastered the classic techniques before his departure into cubism, so nobody questions his skill. This helps separate his works from works by artists who simply lack the skill to paint realistic forms. That, and his works have very intentional visions and expressions that are expertly executed.

This is why I feel less confident than ever. I have not yet mastered the classic techniques, and therefore could not execute my visions with the greatest success. I look forward to the day when I feel I can go for it.

Potawatomi13 · Dec 31, 2016

coh said:
After my last post about how literati/bunjin style trees often evoke the feeling of an old tree that has struggled to survive, I started thinking about the maple that @Owen Reich displayed at the 2014 National Exhibition. A photo, from Jonas Dupuich's blog (https://bonsaitonight.com/2014/10/14/shohin-bonsai-at-the-4th-us-national-bonsai-exhibition/), is shown below. To me, this was one of the most striking and evocative trees at the show. It's not an old specimen, in fact, to me it feels like a young tree. But there was just something about its graceful, elegant appearance that struck a chord with me. Many others said the same. Maybe it reminded me of a place I'd been, a cool spot on a hot summer day. I'm still not sure, but I loved it then, and seeing the photo brings back the same feeling.

But...is it literati/bunjin? Slanting? Something else? Does it matter?

View attachment 127416

Yes. Slanting Literati. Simple, elegant, peaceful, graceful, whimsical. It gives Literati "feel".

Intelligent conversation of the Literati

Chumono

Chumono

Omono

Chumono

Nonsense Rascal

Omono

Masterpiece

Shohin

Shohin

Masterpiece

Mister 500,000

Shohin

Shohin

Deadwood Head

Masterpiece

Chumono

Ignore-Amus

Chumono

Shohin

Imperial Masterpiece

Similar threads