Root Grafts/species?

I wonder if anyone here uses different root grafts than the tree species that is being grafted. I just wonder if say- trident roots are faster to grow than J. Maple and could work better. Or if there is a reason you'd always want to stick with same species and cultivar as the tree.

I always read same species, not necessarily same cultivar... will trident stick to a palmatum?

Plants not of the same genus are almost certain to be incompatible. But grafting between two species in the same genus, such as p. parviflora on p. thunbergii or on p. sylvestris, and p. thunbergii on p. sylvestris, are common commercially - all are of the genus pinus.

So it might be possible to successfully graft any maple's roots to an acer palmatum; acer buergerianum, acer rubrum, acer saccrum, etc.

Yes possible, but are there any actual benefits to doing so? Just curious as I think on spring projects...

0soyoung said:

Plants not of the same genus are almost certain to be incompatible. But grafting between two species in the same genus, such as p. parviflora on p. thunbergii or on p. sylvestris, and p. thunbergii on p. sylvestris, are common commercially - all are of the genus pinus.

So it might be possible to successfully graft any maple's roots to an acer palmatum; acer buergerianum, acer rubrum, acer saccrum, etc.

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Sure it is possible! 90% of Japanese maples available in the nursery trade are grafted onto different varieties of Japanese Maples! All sorts of fruit trees are grafted onto basic plum root stocks... it is super common and apparently very easy and reliable or they wouldn't do it so often... No difference between grafting roots or grafting it a half inch above the roots.

JudyB said:

Yes possible, but are there any actual benefits to doing so? Just curious as I think on spring projects...

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Benefits? Welll... benefits would vary depending on the desired outcome, right? IOW... for producing faster growing trees, grafting it into roots of a stronger growing variety could lead to faster growth, right? Sometimes they do it get a certain type of fruit for instance onto a root stock that will grow better in a certain evirontment...
FOR BONSAI? Well... most grafts of one type of maple roots onto a different maple would be noticeable. For instance, Tridents have noticeably different bark characteristics and color from JM whether young or aged, and would stand out horribly I would think... So for Bonsai, probably not a good thing most of the time.., the JWP grafte dintk JBP you see so often are a perfect example! The bases normally have massive plated bark after som age... a JWP is probably never going to achieve that and the grafts stand out!

0soyoung said:

What are the othe 10% grafted to?

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They are on their own roots of course.
I assume you knew the answer to this question, so I am merely answering it to question the motive behind asking it?

Eric Group said:

They are on their own roots of course.
I assume you knew the answer to this question, so I am merely answering it to question the motive behind asking it?

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Your phraseology

Eric Group said:

90% of Japanese maples available in the nursery trade are grafted onto different varieties of Japanese Maples!

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seems to imply that the other 10% of Japanese maples are grafted to something else.

So what is the source of your market data (that 10% of Japanese maples are seed grown)?

90% of statistics are made up....

0soyoung said:

So it might be possible to successfully graft any maple's roots to an acer palmatum; acer buergerianum, acer rubrum, acer saccrum, etc.

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I don't think so: the different species of Acer are divided into sections, and each section into series. Grafting only works between species belonging to the same series, so I would say that it's the same for root-grafting.

Acer palmatum cultivars are usually grafted on plain Acer p. stock from seeds. The idea is not only to keep the characteristics of the scion (the grafted part) but also to give the tree enough strength to survive because some cultivars are not strong enough on their own roots. Others have no problem surviving on their own roots: quite a few cultivars are now available in garden centers now for a very reasonable price because they're made from cuttings, faster, and cheaper to obtain (A. p. 'Phoenix', 'Katsura', 'Orange Dream', ...)

This being said, nursery people, professional grafters probably base their conclusions on the rate of success thay can get for economic reasons. Maybe a graft which is unlikely to take might sometimes work but if it's to improve the look of a bonsai, I wouldn't take the chace.

Incidently, a member of an association of amateur grafters, a former professional horticulturist, came one day to our club to make a demo and told us that some totally different species, and even genus can be grafted onto another. He gave us the example of lilac that can be grafted on privet, to avoid the many suckers lilac produce.

Very interesting, @AlainK - thanks.

Being an a.p. cultivar enthusiast, I am pretty sure that a lot of professionals opinions include aesthetics - we're very fussy about that stuff! I stumbled upon an a.p. 'Hiname Nishiki' and snapped it up because of its extremely small leaves. Though it is a nice specimen, I still have a desire to make thimble sized 'super mini' bonsai with clippings or layers, but it seems to have a justified reputation for being difficult to propagate.

On the other hand, my current avitar is an acer shirasawanum that I raised from seed. I am aiming to make a mame or shohin with it, though the leaves are somewhat large for that size bonsai. @JudyB's question got me to thinking of also trying to graft a.p. 'Hiname Nishiki' foliage onto it (my little a. shirawawanum tree). These are two different species, though very closely related. Clearly, my perspective is that this is possible since they are two species in the same genus and in this configuration the very different bark characteristic wouldn't matter.

0soyoung said:

'Hiname Nishiki'

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Didn't find it in "Vertees & Gregory", and a search on the internet gave no result: it must be a synonym, or maybe the tree was mislabeled.

"Nishiki" refers to variegated leaves, most of the time: what does yours look like? Any pics?

You've aroused my curiosity...

0soyoung said:

@JudyB's question got me to thinking of also trying to graft a.p. 'Hiname Nishiki' foliage onto it (my little a. shirawawanum tree). These are two different species, though very closely related. Clearly, my perspective is that this is possible since they are two species in the same genus and in this configuration the very different bark characteristic wouldn't matter.

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Both A. palmatum and A. shirasawanum belong to the same section, same series:
Genus: Acer
- Section Palmata
- - Series Palmata
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Acer_species#Section_Palmata)

So, no problem.

BUT: the difference in bark texture will show more between two species than between the plain species and a cultivar of the same species.
I mean, grafting Acer shirasawanum 'Aureum' on plain Acer shirasawanum (from seed) will always look better than grafting it on plain Acer palmatum (from seed).

Also: I don't know how grafting a dwarf species on a rootstock which has a rather strong growth would respond. I mean, I had a Malus 'Van eseltine' grafted on a stock that was Malus 'Zumi' (I know that Malus and Acer are two different genres, but I think it should work the same for both).
'Zumi' is already a species that gives small apples (like 'Everest' for instance). 'Van Eseltine' has smaller fruit, around 1.5 cm (about 1 inch minus 1/2 inch and an 8th - when will the decree to use the metric system be signed? !!! ). Grafted on 'Zumi', it bore apples 0.75 cm in diameter! (about 0.3 in, smaller than my pinkie's fingernail!)

PS: see what I mean?...

Hey! It's fun to use colours in looooong texts. Do you think it helps?...

Further search:

I finally found a 'Hanami Nishiki', and it seems to correspond to your description:

http://forums.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/threads/acer-palmatum-hanami-nishiki.12014/#post-209080

PS: "Osoyoung", are you a member of the Maple Society? Do you sometimes visit, or have you registered to the Maples Forum on the UBC website?
http://forums.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/forums/maples.9/

Feel free to join us, lots of very interesting discussions, and some wonderful pics shared by maples enthusiasts.

My apologies, @AlainK - I misspelled This is indeed it, Hanami Nishiki.
I used to be an avid reader of the UBC maple forum. Then my interests in plant physiology and the bonsai obsession set in. I've only visited a few times since. Thank you for the invitation; maybe it is time that I join. And thank you for reminding me/us about Acers on wikipedia.

0soyoung said:

Your phraseology

seems to imply that the other 10% of Japanese maples are grafted to something else.

So what is the source of your market data (that 10% of Japanese maples are seed grown)?

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Are you fucking kidding me man? I marvel at the size of the stick jammed up your ass sometimes!! SMH

Eric Group said:

Are you fucking kidding me man? I marvel at the size of the stick jammed up your ass sometimes!! SMH

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???

Wow.

Personal grudge?

Do you need your new guru sign a decree "Let's get civilized"? You can wait a long time if you don't have fraternal values. This is not the "Donald Trump" thread, why are you so rude? Need a beretta, a luger, a colt, or what?

AlainK said:

???

Wow.

Personal grudge?

Do you need your new chief sign a decree "Let's get civilized"? You can wait a long time if you don't have fraternal values.

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I don't know what any of that means... you speaking French or something?

I just have no patience for games. Anybody with any common sense knew what I was talking about, he did too. He just likes to condescend people and I don't play that shit.

Eric Group said:

He just likes to condescend people and I don't play that shit

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Got it. That's what I thought.

Eric Group said:

I don't know what any of that means... you speaking French or something?

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I'm just trying to be civilized, which, I'm afraid, a lot of people like you have voted not to.

The difference is I can understand a couple of foreign languages, and I can speak and write fairly good English I think.

But stick to your Podunk-in-the-marsh "culture" if you like. We'll send TV crews to show the rest of the world

Judy.

Why this question?

I'ce sar with this for a day, I have to ask.

It kind of seems like you are trying to cut a corner somewhere.....
I can't figure any other reason for the question.

All I know....

You don't have anything deserves cut corners.

Sorce

Judy. I believe that there are some benefits of grafting roots onto another species in the same genus. A couple of reasons that I know are 1) increase the vigor and 2) extend the range. One example of #1 is Japanese White Pine. It is commonly grafted onto Japanese Black Pine root stock because it's thought to result in a stronger, more vigorous tree on black pine roots. I think that many (most?) JWP in Japan are grafted for this reason. They're easier to care for and more tolerant of bonsai culture - even their foliage looks different. An example of #2 is Ponderosa Pine. I'm experimenting, but I don't think Ponderosa will grow well in Houston. With a lot of care one might be able to keep one alive, but it won't thrive in my climate. So what to do if you want one of those great Ponderosa trunks? Well, you can graft black pine foliage on top. And if you want to really be sure, you can graft black pine roots below. Once you're done you'll essentially have a ponderosa trunk that can survive thrive in Houston, but it will have black pine roots and foliage. Hope this helps.

Scott