Species identification ? Do you know?

Bonsailane said:

That is a great response ,thank you very much.
I will definitely keep it in mind .

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Of all of you folks living in California have any of you grown or seen a successful, showable bonsai of a California Horse Chestnut/Bukeye?

Bonsailane said:

I was wanting to get identification before I dug this tree up ,,,,
there's potential in every tree .

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As long as you do not rule out the number of BTU's produced by burning the stump in a fire place, there is no potential value in some trees. I have been doing this for the better part of fifty years as long as you consider time in service meaning anything and I can assure you that this stump is garbage as far as bonsai is concerned. I would love to be proven wrong......

Vance Wood said:

As long as you do not rule out the number of BTU's produced by burning the stump in a fire place, there is no potential value in some trees. I have been doing this for the better part of fifty years as long as you consider time in service meaning anything and I can assure you that this stump is garbage as far as bonsai is concerned. I would love to be proven wrong......

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The definition of bonsai is plant in a pot .
If someone wanted to be a sheep and follow along with everyone else ,let's say the Japanese style or The Chinese style of bonsai and not just what makes them happy I would say you're right .
I believe John y ,naka said he wished he wrote another book so he could tell people when to break the rules .
As long as you're happy with what you're doing that is the meaning of bonsai .
I just got started and even I know that .
You would think someone who has been doing it for 50 years you could encourage the beginners a little bit better .
Just my opinion .

I have encouraged more beginners and taught more mature growers than you can imagine. My point is I would rather see a beginner spend time working on something that can be made into a bonsai as defined by the hundreds of images seen on the net, in books, magazines and videos---- not just a cynical and arrogant acceptance of the literal definition of the word bonsai as a tree in a pot do you think I don't know that? Did you stop to think why I have said what I have said? Do you think it is because I wish to humiliate you or your choices or do you think that maybe---- I have been down this road and at 71 years old wish I had not been such a self-righteous ass-hat and not wasted so much time on some projects doomed to failure. This project of yours is one of those. If that is the way you want to grow bonsai be my guest. Bonsai is an experiment in time and aging. The problem is you don't get that luxury in your own life. You only get one shot and you should be aware that it is not a forever deal. Pick your battles and thank God if you are young enough you can afford wasting time.

That third pic is human... yea definitely human

I will have to agree with Vance here.

Unless there's an awsome nebari under there, this tree has nothing going for it esthetically. Straight trunk with crappy taper.

If this dig is for practicing to propagate then go for it. Always a lesson learned every time.

Why not leave this one be and find a better candidate?

Vance Wood said:

I have encouraged more beginners and taught more mature growers than you can imagine. My point is I would rather see a beginner spend time working on something that can be made into a bonsai as defined by the hundreds of images seen on the net, in books, magazines and videos---- not just a cynical and arrogant acceptance of the literal definition of the word bonsai as a tree in a pot do you think I don't know that? Did you stop to think why I have said what I have said? Do you think it is because I wish to humiliate you or your choices or do you think that maybe---- I have been down this road and at 71 years old wish I had not been such a self-righteous ass-hat and not wasted so much time on some projects doomed to failure. This project of yours is one of those. If that is the way you want to grow bonsai be my guest. Bonsai is an experiment in time and aging. The problem is you don't get that luxury in your own life. You only get one shot and you should be aware that it is not a forever deal. Pick your battles and thank God if you are young enough you can afford wasting time.

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Vance Wood said:

I have encouraged more beginners and taught more mature growers than you can imagine. My point is I would rather see a beginner spend time working on something that can be made into a bonsai as defined by the hundreds of images seen on the net, in books, magazines and videos---- not just a cynical and arrogant acceptance of the literal definition of the word bonsai as a tree in a pot do you think I don't know that? Did you stop to think why I have said what I have said? Do you think it is because I wish to humiliate you or your choices or do you think that maybe---- I have been down this road and at 71 years old wish I had not been such a self-righteous ass-hat and not wasted so much time on some projects doomed to failure. This project of yours is one of those. If that is the way you want to grow bonsai be my guest. Bonsai is an experiment in time and aging. The problem is you don't get that luxury in your own life. You only get one shot and you should be aware that it is not a forever deal. Pick your battles and thank God if you are young enough you can afford wasting time.

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First of all in this post all I did was ask to identify the species ,
But of course I do enjoy a healthy debate .
As of all the images on the net ,books , magazines and videos , 90% of these bonsai look nothing like what you see in the wild and if I'm not mistaken that is the Objective of what they were trying to go for .
I don't think you have humiliated me ,I am always open for opinions .
And you are right ! A beginner can learn a lot from someone who is 71 years old .
But time is never wasted if you enjoy what you are doing . I have never been the type to try to re-create what someone else thinks is perfect, I will try to re-create what I see in the woods .
Not to say that the other way is wrong ,I just choose my own style of bonsai .
If I think this tree has potential and would like to turn it into a bonsai ,The proper thing a man in your shoes ( a man with a vast knowledge of the art ) should do is to let me know how to change this tree into a bonsai
"not discourage someone "

What I am trying to tell you is that to turn this tree into a bonsai you first have to get it out of the ground and be able to keep it alive. I think I told you that this will probably be a very difficult operation with very low expectation of success. If you can get the tree out of the ground what do you have to keep the tree in, you can't just have it sitting on your patio bare to the roots? You could dig around the tree and think you might get new roots and finish digging the tree later, which usually does not work, but this take two to three years to accomplish. So start there. To make this tree a bonsai you have to get it out of the ground. Good luck. What you think of as discouragement is sound advise attempting to get you to pick something with better options. There is no worse discouragement than a project lost, hopes dashed and dead trees.

Vance Wood said:

What I am trying to tell you is that to turn this tree into a bonsai you first have to get it out of the ground and be able to keep it alive. I think I told you that this will probably be a very difficult operation with very low expectation of success. If you can get the tree out of the ground what do you have to keep the tree in, you can't just have it sitting on your patio bare to the roots? You could dig around the tree and think you might get new roots and finish digging the tree later, which usually does not work, but this take two to three years to accomplish. So start there. To make this tree a bonsai you have to get it out of the ground. Good luck.

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No that was an awesome response ,,thank you very much Mr. Wood .

i think part of what Vance is getting at is that collecting material for bonsai takes a lot of thought and skill. I might recommend you start with a nursery or pre bonsai plant of the same genus as you want to collect. After re potting and maintaining it for a while, you will know how to work the roots and reduce the crown without stressing the plant too much. Trying to find a specimen in a situation that encourages shallow roots, like moist soil and pockets in rock makes collecting easier and more successful. I started out collecting elms and honeysuckle. These are fairly easy. Conifers and plants with long taproots are more difficult.

Thanks

I can't help but sit on the fence.

I totally understand where Vance is coming from.

But if I didn't dig something like that 5 years ago, I wouldn't be enjoying it as one of my favorite trees right now, or contemplating a pot for it.

Of course it has no branches and only the second segment of taper built....

But it is very enjoyable!

Of course, mine was an elm much smaller.

That said....find out what it is...
Even if it means digging it after leaf out.
Or maybe you can get a cutting to throw a leaf indoors to find out beforehand.

For me...
If something has roots already so big that you're better off layering it, or have to cut em and worry about survival, your better off growing something out from sapling.

With the litter, ahem, LEAF litter, there's a good chance of a lot of good close surface roots...

Then again, there's a good chance you end up with a club you can only think to use upon yourself because Vance was right!

I say, find the flare, give us a look, and let's argue this winter away!

Sorce

sorce said:

I can't help but sit on the fence.

I totally understand where Vance is coming from.

But if I didn't dig something like that 5 years ago, I wouldn't be enjoying it as one of my favorite trees right now, or contemplating a pot for it.

Of course it has no branches and only the second segment of taper built....

But it is very enjoyable!

Of course, mine was an elm much smaller.

That said....find out what it is...
Even if it means digging it after leaf out.
Or maybe you can get a cutting to throw a leaf indoors to find out beforehand.

For me...
If something has roots already so big that you're better off layering it, or have to cut em and worry about survival, your better off growing something out from sapling.

With the litter, ahem, LEAF litter, there's a good chance of a lot of good close surface roots...

Then again, there's a good chance you end up with a club you can only think to use upon yourself because Vance was right!

I say, find the flare, give us a look, and let's argue this winter away!

Sorce

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Don't give me wrong ,,,,,
I do understand where they're coming from as well but it's like you said if you get enjoyment out of it that's all that matters

Bonsailane said:

but it's like you said if you get enjoyment out of it that's all that matters

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I think what Vance it trying to say. You might get even more enjoyment out of other plants. So rather than sppend a lot of time and effort on this one, walk another few hours, and get something even better.

Yep,,, got it.
I personally get enjoyment out of trees no one else wants .
The key there is "I get enjoyment ."

sorce said:

I can't help but sit on the fence.

I totally understand where Vance is coming from.

But if I didn't dig something like that 5 years ago, I wouldn't be enjoying it as one of my favorite trees right now, or contemplating a pot for it.

Of course it has no branches and only the second segment of taper built....

But it is very enjoyable!

Of course, mine was an elm much smaller.

That said....find out what it is...
Even if it means digging it after leaf out.
Or maybe you can get a cutting to throw a leaf indoors to find out beforehand.

For me...
If something has roots already so big that you're better off layering it, or have to cut em and worry about survival, your better off growing something out from sapling.

With the litter, ahem, LEAF litter, there's a good chance of a lot of good close surface roots...

Then again, there's a good chance you end up with a club you can only think to use upon yourself because Vance was right!

I say, find the flare, give us a look, and let's argue this winter away!

Sorce

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I think sorce had the best response .
I do understand where Vince is coming from .
But I have trees in the yard now just like this one that are doing just fine.

Good grief, man. Stop being so obstinate. You have literally picked the worst plant species you can find to try to bonsai. Practically every other tree in the woods has better bonsai potential than hickory.

Cons: extremely long internode length, very hard wood, large leaves, compound leaves, no ramification, tap root . . .

Pros: it's a tree?!

There are a dozen, or more, different plants in your area that are well suited to bonsai. Why not try one of those?

Thanks,
It's amazing to me how many people are so dead set against me digging up the tree when I have said repeatedly that I enjoy doing this . Making nothing into something .
All I have asked was to identify the species .
Good grief ,, man.

people here have got to get better at recognizing trolls.

I'm inclined to think hickory or oak, Arkansas Dept Forestry should have a trees of Ark on line identification guide. A good guide will show winter twigs and buds.

Alternate leaf pattern is good for bonsai. Looks to have long internodes and coarse branch pattern. Not good traits for bonsai, but can be worked with.

If it were me, I'd walk past this one, is there a stream nearby, often on under cut stream banks you find trees easier to collect and possibly more character. I would chop it to half its height, were I going to take it.

I wrestled for years with material like this, it didn't become anything but eventual fire wood. But it can teach you some things. Good to practice trunk carving.

Scouting for trees to dig is a skill that takes a little "practice", even last spring, was digging some with a buddy, I walk past one my friend took that he turned into a potential show caliber tree, in one season the potential was obvious. The ones I picked look much more ordinary, and will need a few more years to become something worth a good pot. Or some of mine will end up firewood. Collecting is a skill, needs to be learned and honed. Some are better at seeing real potential than others, but it can be learned.

Dig your tree up, then assess its strengths and weaknesses, be honest, with yourself, don't tell us, and decide if it will be worth the work. If it never becomes something, don't need to tell us. But if you hit a good one, share photos to show us we under estimated the tree.