How to: Back Bud Japanese Black Pine Seedlings?

Haoleboy · Jan 23, 2017

I ordered a bunch of JBP seedlings and received them this weekend. Most are about 4-6" and have breaking buds low on the trunks. There are several though that are long and leggy. These are about 6-8" and all of the growth is at the tops. Any ideas on how to encourage growth down low? Should I top the seedlings or allow to grow and hope buds eventually break?

Leo in N E Illinois · Jan 23, 2017

Get them potted and growing. Don't worry about back budding on trees this young. Let them grow at least one year, to get roots establish before thinking about bud pruning. If in full sun, back budding will likely happen by itself, but down the road you can encourage budding, but not now. Work on establishing roots.

You can wire interesting bends and twists right now, as you pot them up. That's okay.

Haoleboy · Jan 23, 2017

Leo in N E Illinois said:
Get them potted and growing. Don't worry about back budding on trees this young. Let them grow at least one year, to get roots establish before thinking about bud pruning. If in full sun, back budding will likely happen by itself, but down the road you can encourage budding, but not now. Work on establishing roots.

You can wire interesting bends and twists right now, as you pot them up. That's okay.

Ok great. I really didn't want to slow them down anyways. I ordered them from Maryland and live in Central Florida. I wanted to wire them but was concerned about to shock between regions. Think it's ok to go ahead and wire them? We're going to have a cool down over the next week or so. It's not going to be so hot. Also, I have them in filtered light in my screened in lanai. Think it's wise to slowly introduce them to Florida sunshine?

sorce · Jan 23, 2017

Haoleboy said:
Think it's wise to slowly introduce them to Florida sunshine?

I'd be more worried about the endless humid.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

Haoleboy · Jan 23, 2017

sorce said:
I'd be more worried about the endless humid.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

I have an older JBP and it seems to be doing fine. What should I be looking out for in respects to Florida's humidity?

Leo in N E Illinois · Jan 23, 2017

They will be fine, wire now, bright shade on the lanai for 2 to 3 weeks, if looking good move to full sun, if green needles a funky color, keep in part shade until they green up. , Cool no problem, but protect from frost. Going from cold to warm is less stress than the reverse.

markyscott · Jan 23, 2017

Here's a thread. It and the links therein will give you abundant information about how to work with black pine seedlings as well as the myriad of things you can do with them. Don't cut back now, but have fun! Lots of projects you can do.

miker · Jan 23, 2017

I wouldn't protect your JBP from any kind of cold temps you will get in Central FL. Let them get as much of a "winter" as possible.

nstansbury · Jan 24, 2017

Initiating back budding on any actively growing conifer - but especially saplings/seedlings is simple, just break its apical dominance. You can top them but it's simpler, easier, and offers better long term options just to wire over their apical meristem. The challenge is actually encouraging vigour in those new shoots. My rule is never ever let more than two buds extend - even on sacrifice branches, dealing with whorls down the road in a branch you'd quite like to keep is a pain, and as two apically dominant/vigorous buds can only ever extend so much, it forces vigour else where if the tree is healthy.

Either way you want to get some back budding as soon as possible or before you know it they'll be 2ft feet tall with a long thin trunk and little further down.

Bonsai Nut · Jan 24, 2017

nstansbury said:
I My rule is never ever let more than two buds extend - even on sacrifice branches, dealing with whorls down the road in a branch you'd quite like to keep is a pain, and as two apically dominant/vigorous buds can only ever extend so much, it forces vigour else where if the tree is healthy.

Great advice - for those who can understand it. I'm not sure how to even restate it to make it simpler for people. As you cut back your black pines, you will often find that on your strong branches you will get more than two buds. If you let those buds extend (more than two), you will not only get stronger growth than you desire on that branch, but you will get localized swelling that will give you heartache down the road when you reduce to two branches and find a big knot where you would want to see a smooth transition.

Haoleboy · Jan 24, 2017

miker said:
I wouldn't protect your JBP from any kind of cold temps you will get in Central FL. Let them get as much of a "winter" as possible.

I'm only protecting them from the sun. But it's supposed to be colder over the next week or so.

Haoleboy · Jan 24, 2017

nstansbury said:
or before you know it they'll be 2ft feet tall with a long thin trunk and little further down.

Exactly what I don't want. My goal for these is shohin. So I want the branches as low as possible. I know I can cheat a little with bending the trunks but branching is better.

Haoleboy · Jan 24, 2017

markyscott said:
Here's a thread. It and the links therein will give you abundant information about how to work with black pine seedlings as well as the myriad of things you can do with them. Don't cut back now, but have fun! Lots of projects you can do.

Did you forget to post the link?

markyscott · Jan 24, 2017

Haoleboy said:
Did you forget to post the link?

Click on the words "Here's a thread".

nstansbury · Jan 25, 2017

Bonsai Nut said:
As you cut back your black pines, you will often find that on your strong branches you will get more than two buds. If you let those buds extend (more than two), you will not only get stronger growth than you desire on that branch, but you will get localized swelling that will give you heartache down the road when you reduce to two branches and find a big knot where you would want to see a smooth transition.

I've a few Scots Pines saplings that I'd left the escape branch untouched on to maximise growth and have now regretted not being able to use any of the branches from the whorl onwards.

Haoleboy said:
Exactly what I don't want. My goal for these is shohin. So I want the branches as low as possible. I know I can cheat a little with bending the trunks but branching is better.

So you have two choices, either cut the apical tip and wait, or my preference which is a no-cut policy - loosely wiring in some aggressive bends (as its a shohin) ending with the apical tip horizontal or below, and reducing its buds to two equally sized smaller ones - that ideally are next to each other. Any other smaller branches with multiple buds are selected for two equally sized largest ones. This is one of the best guides IMO: http://www.phutu.com/black-pine-creation/

I have no qualms about bare rooting my pines - though I don't own any priceless 40 y/old ones, and I also use a rich phytohormone root drench with a mycorrhiza root gel, so most people won't bare root. But assuming they are in standard nursery pots I'd also get them slip potted into a pond basket with a decent substrate, feed and water well. I also spray all my seedlings with a dilute Bordeaux solution after repotting.

jeanluc83 · Jan 25, 2017

A strongly growing JBP seedling will backbud on its own. Give them lots of sun and fertilize heavily and you will get lots of growth and back budding.

The problem you may have if you are going for shohin is the distance to the first node. Unless you have seedling cuttings your first node may be 4 or 5 inches above the roots.

Adair M · Jan 25, 2017

jeanluc83 said:
A strongly growing JBP seedling will backbud on its own. Give them lots of sun and fertilize heavily and you will get lots of growth and back budding.

The problem you may have if you are going for shohin is the distance to the first node. Unless you have seedling cuttings your first node may be 4 or 5 inches above the roots.

Jeanluc nailed it! For Shohin, seedling cuttings is the way to g0.

sorce · Jan 25, 2017

Amen...

I was thinking backbudding from the bottom up!

Sorce

nstansbury · Jan 25, 2017

Adair M said:
Jeanluc nailed it! For Shohin, seedling cuttings is the way to g0.

Except at 6" - 8" tall these are already a year old, seedling cutting is usually done in the first few months - the OP would be trying to root these from softwood.

jeanluc83 · Jan 26, 2017

The OP did not actually say if the seedlings are seedling cuttings or not. I just assumed that they were not.

At this point there is little that can be done with regular seedlings to reduce the distance to the first node. I would grow these as medium to large trees and start some seeds to make some seedling cuttings. In Florida now is the time to start seeds. The process is very easy and rewarding.

How to: Back Bud Japanese Black Pine Seedlings?

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