Black Pine from Seed

[tmmason10]

I decided to try my hand at seeds this Spring so I got some JBP seeds (as well as Trident Maple). From what I have been reading, they do not need cold stratification? The maples do, but the black pines do not?

If anyone has a good link on where to get this information from please share it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I haven't cold stratified pine seed and have had high germination rates. Where I run into losses are when I remove the root; then it's about 50%, but the trees that survive have better flare. I'd rather cull at this stage than after spending 5-10 years developing something with a flawed base.

Articles:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/seed.htm
Bonsai Today: Issues 12, 20, 71, 83, 106

 

[tmmason10]

I haven't cold stratified pine seed and have had high germination rates. Where I run into losses are when I remove the root; then it's about 50%, but the trees that survive have better flare. I'd rather cull at this stage than after spending 5-10 years developing something with a flawed base.

Articles:
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/seed.htm
Bonsai Today: Issues 12, 20, 71, 83, 106

Duh, Brents site. Should have known that. Ok well I'll give it a shot then, when do you usually sow them? March? April? Different climates I guess but just curious.

 

[bwaynef]

I'm glad I checked this thread. I was about to stratify mine in the fridge (and probably still will since it won't hurt and they've already soaked). I follow the technique outlined in the Pines book (and earlier Bonsai Today articles). The best pictorial thread I've seen is at http://bonsaistudygroup.com/japanes...growing-mikawa-japanese-black-pine-from-seed/ . He's a few years ahead of me, but that's what I do (or what I will be doing).

 

[dpowell]

I just sowed a number of types of seeds earlier this week. I did not stratify as, while my climate is mild, we will still be cold for a while before spring gets here. Last time I tried growing seed I did the whole cold stratify thing with very poor results. Trying the more natural way this time.

 

[tmmason10]

To update this thread, I did not cold stratify seeds and a few have sprouted already. I'll try and post a picture tonight.

 

[tmmason10]

Some quick shots from outside. Another 20 years and phew they will be showstoppers for sure.

 

[Eric Schrader]

In about a month you should cut the roots, or even sooner, like as soon as the first true leaves start emerging. Check BT#21 or the Stone Lantern Pine book for instructions if you don't already have them. Use a razor blade or extremely sharp knife (like a brand new exacto) treat with rooting hormone and plant in bonsai soil with a small hole in the center of the surface filled with sand. 20 years from now you'll thank yourself.

 

[tmmason10]

In about a month you should cut the roots, or even sooner, like as soon as the first true leaves start emerging. Check BT#21 or the Stone Lantern Pine book for instructions if you don't already have them. Use a razor blade or extremely sharp knife (like a brand new exacto) treat with rooting hormone and plant in bonsai soil with a small hole in the center of the surface filled with sand. 20 years from now you'll thank yourself.

Yup, I have the pines book and will be performing the cuttings like you said. Looking forward to more sprouts by then hopefully.

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

I know that my opinion about this problem is minority but personally I feel that for chuhins and big trees, there is no use making cuttings one month after germination. On the contrary, I let them grow in the deepest pot possible (at least 20 cm to have a straight top root, then one year after I cut all the root except those localized on a 2 cm height (I choose the 2 cms with most roots) and put them in a not very draining mix. At that stage, they usually can't take enough water to stay turgescent if in a sunny place so I put them on a shaded area for about two weeks. This year, in about 30 of them, I have lost none.
As for the result, you can see this post http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?5537-Japanese-Red-Pine-question. I can show more pics on a French forum.

 

[tmmason10]

I know that my opinion about this problem is minority but personally I feel that for chuhins and big trees, there is no use making cuttings one month after germination. On the contrary, I let them grow in the deepest pot possible (at least 20 cm to have a straight top root, then one year after I cut all the root except those localized on a 2 cm height (I choose the 2 cms with most roots) and put them in a not very draining mix. At that stage, they usually can't take enough water to stay turgescent if in a sunny place so I put them on a shaded area for about two weeks. This year, in about 30 of them, I have lost none.
As for the result, you can see this post http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?5537-Japanese-Red-Pine-question. I can show more pics on a French forum.

Merci Alan. Definitely conflicting with a lot of people but I have put thought into doing some cuttings and some leaving as is. So you keep them in pots for 3-4 seasons then pop them in the ground?

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

I repot them again at two years later (age 3), then keep them tree more years in a pot ~10 liter before putting them in the ground.

 

[Eric Schrader]

Actually, I think that if you do as Alain mentions that you're probably accomplishing the same thing at a different stage. The important thing is to start the roots splitting, but with ten years or more to work on it you can get it done in various ways. The flare at the base doesn't just magically appear after you do the seedling cutting. That only accomplishes the start of the start. When they're two years old I do about what Alain is describing by cutting the roots way back, spreading them out and wiring the trunk all at once. Then into a pond basket for 5 years.

 

[tmmason10]

How late is too late to make seedling cuttings. I did about half a while ago, but I have some that are still in their seed pots that should be taken too. If not, should I slip pot them into slightly larger pots or leave them in the seed trays?

 

[tmmason10]

Well I ended up making only 6 cuttings, and two didn't make it. The others are growing well though so I thought I'd update. Any one else want to share if they grew JBP this spring? I'd love to see how everyone's batches are going.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here are my paltry 3-year-old JBP, germinated in '09, root-cut that spring, then grown in 4" pots for '10 and '11..finally transferred to the ground this spring:


And here are 2 5-year-old Japanese Red Pines, doing much better, 3rd year in the ground:

#1 was chopped last fall, and has thrown off some decent back-budding and a little taper.


#2 is 6' tall and needs to be chopped back this fall. Problem is, a few tridents are in front of them and will shade them out if I'm not careful.

 

[tmmason10]

Thanks for sharing BVF. That first red pine looks like it does have good start to taper. Any reason why the black pines don't seem like there is any movement wired into them?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thanks for sharing BVF. That first red pine looks like it does have good start to taper. Any reason why the black pines don't seem like there is any movement wired into them?

Cuz there isn't...gonna let them grow and chop to create movement over the next few years, like with #1 red pine. I don't care for the wired pine trunk look.

 

[tmmason10]

Cuz there isn't...gonna let them grow and chop to create movement over the next few years, like with #1 red pine. I don't care for the wired pine trunk look.

Ok right, got it. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Matt1]

Hi there, I am new to this forum. I just got approved yesterday. You were the first person that I decided to read about. I have to go to work soon, so i have not read alot but i am very interested in your blog. I too also started a blog about growing bonsai from seeds. As soon as I get home tonight I am going to read your whole blog. thanks.

Matt
My blogg

I decided to try my hand at seeds this Spring so I got some JBP seeds (as well as Trident Maple). From what I have been reading, they do not need cold stratification? The maples do, but the black pines do not?

If anyone has a good link on where to get this information from please share it.