Foliage pads

[catfish chapstick]

How do I put this...

What is the deal with foliage pads? Is this something to strive for in bonsai? I look at all these trees and often see well defined foliage pads. If it's not a conifer and the pads look like a set of stairs I don't understand how it can possibly look like a real tree. Does it not lose its tree-ness?

When I started bonsai I thought it was the greatest. Now idk what the hell I was thinking. Without pads a tree looks more like a tree. Or even with less pads. I hate even calling them pads. I look around at trees and these artificial looking pads really make me wonder what others see in and think about them.

Am I thinking about it too much or does anyone agree? the paint by number approach to bonsai is too obviously manufactured.

The best bonsai are the ones that move away from this.

 

[tim]

Hi. I agree with you. Some trees really look artificial . Suppose it's tradition ? Stairways to heaven the japanese call it.

 

[Nybonsai12]

It's all a matter of preference. Some like the look of a perfectly manicured foliage pad while others like the rugged more natural look of a tree that has endured a life in the wild.

Where is that thread about that cookie cutter juniper? or something like that was the title.

personally i like the look of pads on some trees. I also like natural looking trees. I guess I like em both.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you spend any time in the Western Mountains and make a habit of looking at old trees you will see that they too produce what you can think of as foliage pads. The problem is in the art and practice of bonsai this feature in some schools of thought is stressed to a point of ridiculousness making some trees look more artificial than others. Over the last decade or so most of the serious new bonsai masters have softened this image a bit but still foliage pads do denote a feature of age and that, after all, is the idea behind bonsai.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Hi. I agree with you. Some trees really look artificial . Suppose it's tradition ? Stairways to heaven the japanese call it.

Glad I'm not the only one. Looks fine on some conifers.

It's all a matter of preference. Some like the look of a perfectly manicured foliage pad while others like the rugged more natural look of a tree that has endured a life in the wild.

Where is that thread about that cookie cutter juniper? or something like that was the title.

personally i like the look of pads on some trees. I also like natural looking trees. I guess I like em both.

It is just taste I guess.

If you spend any time in the Western Mountains and make a habit of looking at old trees you will see that they too produce what you can think of as foliage pads. The problem is in the art and practice of bonsai this feature in some schools of thought is stressed to a point of ridiculousness making some trees look more artificial than others. Over the last decade or so most of the serious new bonsai masters have softened this image a bit but still foliage pads do denote a feature of age and that, after all, is the idea behind bonsai.

I don't live in the western United States so I don't see the old trees that you speak of. I'd love to see some examples of trees in the wild looking like bonsai. I don't mean all the gnarly dead wood, I mean clear and defined pads. I know I have seen some before.

I found this image of a big pine. Not really showing pads but still having foliage masses that break up the space. Looks very natural with upward reaching branches.

 

[ghues]

Hi Kat,
I think along the same lines but also like bonsai compositions that are very effective when using foliage pads/masses.
I prefer conifers and so I have a photo collection of real trees for inspiration - here are two that show foliage masses/pads. The first one is what I've called Husband and wife, they are Mountain Hemlock (MH)and even though they appear massive they aren't much taller than 30-35', I even love the dead branches lol.
The second photo has a Yellow cedar (Alaskan Cedar) in the center which also has foliage pads but notice that you can't see the main branch itself as the foliage hangs downwards, however note the second tree to its left - its a MH which clearly has "pads" and for the most part you can see the branch structure - this adaptation follows one of the general "rules"(guidelines).... however, I want to learn how to portray the hanging/cascading foliage technique but that's off topic.
p.s. glad to see you posting again.
Cheers Graham

 

[lordy]

I'm thinking it may have morphed from when John Naka said he wanted negative space in tree foliage "so birds can fly through it". From there, perfectly manicured foliage turned into pom poms, which I prefer not to see. Walter Pall is a proponent of rounded canopies, much like what wild trees in nature look like many times. Sure, there are plenty of triangular conifers and many prefer that style in all bonsai. The pads may have their place, but I think it might be a bit dated in terms of a design objective. One west-coast bonsai celebrity took my 40 yr old kingsville boxwood and turned it into a poodle. Three years later it has filled back in, much to my satisfaction.
Check out the trees here: https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/north-american-collection/

 

[youngsai]

I feel the same way, and hate that word also, IDKY! I jst call them layers, foliage layers.

As far as aesthetics, I think it looks good on most trees, definitely looks better than the alternative imho. I hate the dome look unless there are only a few branches, these are good examples.

Think about alternatives I guess, dome shaped tree or wild and unkempt, or layers. I'll take layers then. Any alternatives I'm missing?


Here are some examples of what I mean, in the 1st picture the front tree has good layers, the one in the back i think has more dome shaped feature. The 2nd picture has the dome shape I don't like as much. And the 3rd picture even though it doesn't have as much motion as the 2nd pic's trunk, because of the layers it looks as good in terms of movement imho.

 

[Dav4]

How do I put this...

What is the deal with foliage pads?

To me, a bonsai with well defined pads is utilizing another styling technique to make it look larger AND older.

 

[buddhamonk]

I like my bonsai to look like old venerable trees. The trees that make you stop and stare. I guess if you like bonsai to look like any other tree, one that just blends in, go ahead and avoid "pads" or layers...

 

[Anthony]

Catfish,

the idea comes from Traditional Chinese Landscape ink paintings. I think on Vimeo or Youtube you can see episode 20, first season of Lindsay Farrs - World of Bonsai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfWrngax0Ms

about 1.0 minute in.

And the Mustard Seed Garden book of painting for amateurs.

Additionally, what you also have to look at is distance - the mounds and domes are trees close-up.
the pads are for trees in the distance.

It's what happens when folk stop looking and just start following, what they see as popular or conventional.

You have most excellent instincts!
Good Day
Anthony

A few examples-

http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/image/0012/188967/fig3_cows_derwentwater.jpg

http://www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/resources/Painting/MaYuan/face-moon.jpg

http://167.206.67.164/resources/hum....China/..\G7.e.China/Xai Gui 12Views_Left.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wo4u6E-xR...ink+painting+techniqes+how+to+paint+trees.jpg

 

[davetree]

Peter Tea has some interesting photos on his blog of old Japanese maples that grow pads on the lower branches. They are not pruned that way, they grow that way naturally. On old branches that hang downward.

 

[october]

I love the look of foliage pads on a tree. Trees are creations of nature. We do not need to be reminded of this. The pads add a sense of man's hand in cooperation with nature. Bonsai is the artistic view of nature. Also and this is very important, but not emphasized enough. Pads, among other Japanese aethetics, are in place for not only looks, but health. The interior structure of a pad is almost like a small tree. If you look at a branch from overhead. There is taper, ladder branching and other things than constitute balance. By having a well structured pad, it makes pruning much easier. You will always be pruning from where the initial structure was created and not just random or all over the place pruning. Also, not in all cases, but many, trying to deviate from pads can lead to your image being on borrowed time. As the tree grows, you may have to prune in areas that you normally wouldn't to keep the shape. This can lead to unhealthy sections and a ruined design. Also, ladder, off set pad placement allows light to penetrated down into the lower sections of the tree.

All in all, it is what looks good. However, without health, you cannot do anything. If you are Walter Pall and have lose pad interpretations that is one thing. However, you will find in many cases, that those who go against pad formation are having a difficult time keeping their bonsai structured and/or healthy. Not in all cases, but I think people may find it difficult or do not want to put the time in to create this structure. You will never see healthier bonsai than the ones that the Japanese have created. This is how they keep 300 year old bonsai in incredible shape and health after being bonsai for 50 years. You will notice that many of the Japanese masterpiece trees look better or in some cases healthier than they did 50 years.

Rob

 

[nathanbs]

Glad I'm not the only one. Looks fine on some conifers.



It is just taste I guess.



I don't live in the western United States so I don't see the old trees that you speak of. I'd love to see some examples of trees in the wild looking like bonsai. I don't mean all the gnarly dead wood, I mean clear and defined pads. I know I have seen some before.

I found this image of a big pine. Not really showing pads but still having foliage masses that break up the space. Looks very natural with upward reaching branches.

If you look at the picture you posted with squinted eyes there are definitive foliage masses and to interpret this into miniature one creates pads. A tree in nature will have straggler, smaller, weaker branches in these voids or negative space due to lack of sunlight, they never fill in. It would look sloppy to try and replicate this. Its much cleaner to just clear out those negative spaces.

 

[coh]

...Bonsai is the artistic view of nature...

Yep...an idealized, initially Japanese view of nature (along with the health and structural issues Rob mentioned). If one doesn't want to style their trees with pads, and prefers something more free-form or "natural", go for it. Variety is the spice of life!

 

[october]

This is a continuation of my post #13...
After the initial structure is in place. How manicured or neat you want to keep the tree will be up to you. However, if you avoid this initial structuring process from the beginning when training a tree, there is a good chance you are removing this option. Basically, getting a good structure from the beginning gives you options within the confines of health and aesthetics. Whether down the road you want more of a shaggy/natural or perfectly trimmed look will be up to you. In short, avoiding this initial process may come back to bite you and take away the exact option you are trying to create.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

I like square watermelons...
Who here likes square watermelons ???

Come on folks... if you don't like pads on a tree that isn't a
conifer than fine, if you don't think it looks natural... then fine.

I just don't understand why in an "ART-FORM" everyone has
to constantly be setting up boundaries for what can and cannot
be done... it's just plain silly !!!

I think Andy Warhol's paintings are utter crap... but, someone out
there is hanging them on their wall.

 

[A Random User]

This is a continuation of my post #13...
After the initial structure is in place. How manicured or neat you want to keep the tree will be up to you. However, if you avoid this initial structuring process from the beginning when training a tree, there is a good chance you are removing this option. Basically, getting a good structure from the beginning gives you options within the confines of health and aesthetics. Whether down the road you want more of a shaggy/natural or perfectly trimmed look will be up to you. In short, avoiding this initial process may come back to bite you and take away the exact option you are trying to create.

Rob

I would also like to add to this...
by saying that with some plants not padding them up,
even loosely, you end up with very little, or no back-budding,
and only a leaf or two on a branch, Because of the foliage shading
out the interior branches. Which unless constantly thinned out, one
creates a very weak branch, and thus a very weak tree.
So, there are pluses and minuses to padding and not padding...

Also... if everyone here now decides that natural trees are what we
are going to go for... can we then throw out reverse taper, good nebari,
and that a tree has to look cool, along with getting rid of pads ???
Cause in my travels through life, I have seen some Butt ugly trees in
"nature", with all of the above...

 

[nathanbs]

View attachment 45220
I like square watermelons...
Who here likes square watermelons ???

Come on folks... if you don't like pads on a tree that isn't a
conifer than fine, if you don't think it looks natural... then fine.

I just don't understand why in an "ART-FORM" everyone has
to constantly be setting up boundaries for what can and cannot
be done... it's just plain silly !!!

I think Andy Warhol's paintings are utter crap... but, someone out
there is hanging them on their wall.

I agree with you however the OP says I dont like foliage pads but then shows a pic of a tree in nature with distinct foliage masses. So needless to say Im a little confused and/or perhaps so are they. If the discussion were "do you like perfectly manicured trees that have perfect razor edge pads versus less refined pads?" then we can discuss the pros and cons of both and who likes what. It seems that catstick chopfish was merely saying i dont like this what do you guys think? I think we are all stuck on what "THIS" truly is.

By the way how did they do those melons? Grew them in a box?

Not only are they hanging Warhols on the wall but they are worth a fortune

 

[A Random User]

By the way how did they do those melons? Grew them in a box?

Yep... I think the Japanese who aren't busy putting foliage pads
on trees are busy growing fruit in boxes !!! I am told that they are
done this way for easy transport...
Just think, coming to a supermarket near you !!!