My first Elm

maroun.c

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Hi all,
Just got my first Elm today. Not the most beautiful but something to hopefully be able tonkeepnalive and learn from or with (have just killed 3 olive bonsai and maybe two more on the way because of rookie soil mistakes)
So here goes the tree


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First bad surprise.
The wires are still on the tree and have already went a bit in the branch. I'm guessing its fine to remove them as most probably the branches have taken shape. but will those marks heal?

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Soil looks to be some sort of peat which I was told doesn't work with bonsai. yet this one has good drainage as I can see when I water. I have changed the soil (was worse) on couple of olives that were doing really bad but decided to keep the remaining olives till next june in the soil they're in. should I change soil for this one and is it urgent to change now or when can I safely do it. Its mid summer here in lebanon and temperature is around 30 degrees celsius.
and last questions, what age do you think this Elm is? does it have potential? also how do you suggest I shape it do I still allow it to go higher and create some curves in the trunk to match how it is on the lower part or let it grow straightforward? I'm considering taking out some of the leaves and branches to get the plates to get a bit more dense?
One last question there was another one in the store myabe 15 cm higher but showing much nicer roots above the sand, I chose this one as I liked the trunk better. the other one was around double the price. do you think it's a good idea to get a second Elm just for the roots difference or is it best to go for a Juniper, pine , cedar and then start getting doubles?
Thanks for any suggestions.
 

maroun.c

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As for soil was told to use a mix of Akadama pumice and Lava but I could only find pumice here.
I found the followings please advise what should I use for my soil mix and if therese anything specific about olives or elms or other bonsais or if the same mix works for all
Pumice medium large grain
Perlite small
clay balls found a large ball size which I was told to crush and use the medium pieces
small clay balls found those today and wondering If i can use as is or if I should also brake those?
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also found these types of gravel one store uses on top of the soil any use for any of those?
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Thanks for any advice.
 

bonsaidave

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If the Wire can be removed without damaging the trunk that would probably be a good thing to do. It should heal but the scaring will probably look a bit bad for a while.

Root work in Summer heat would probably be a bit dangerous. If it were mine I would probably slip pot it into a slightly larger pot and gently work in some better soil in the bottom and edges. Then root work/repot towards the end of the coldest time of year.

Generally smaller sized soils will retain water longer which might or might not be a good thing. Depends on climate, how much sun the tree is getting, and your watering habits. Akadama is not a requirement it just has good qualities for some environments if you have access to the stuff. No access in my area so I don't us it.

Here is a Basic soil components PDF. Maybe this will help when you do decide to perform the root work and repot. "http://www.bonsailearningcenter.com/IMAGES/PDF Files/Soils.pdf"

If you don't have access to soils you read about try to find locally available soil components that have the same properties (Water, Nutrient retention, Drainage)

Good luck. :D
 
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maroun.c

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I think it's very beautiful, nice and big, lot's of branches (lot of stuff you can layer off it.;)

Thanks.
I'm usually an olive Bonsai fan but am loving the soft leaf looks on Elms. Considering getting that second one I saw in the store with elevated roots as it looks even nicer with clearly more work on the roots and thicker trunk.
Thanks.
 

maroun.c

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If the Wire can be removed without damaging the trunk that would probably be a good thing to do. It should heal but the scaring will probably look a bit bad for a while.

Root work in Summer heat would probably be a bit dangerous. If it were mine I would probably slip pot it into a slightly larger pot and gently work in some better soil in the bottom and edges. Then root work/repot towards the end of the coldest time of year.

Generally smaller sized soils will retain water longer which might or might not be a good thing. Depends on climate, how much sun the tree is getting, and your watering habits. Akadama is not a requirement it just has good qualities for some environments if you have access to the stuff. No access in my area so I don't us it.

Here is a Basic soil components PDF. Maybe this will help when you do decide to perform the root work and repot. "http://www.bonsailearningcenter.com/IMAGES/PDF Files/Soils.pdf"

If you don't have access to soils you read about try to find locally available soil components that have the same properties (Water, Nutrient retention, Drainage)

Good luck. :D

Tried to remove a small portion of it and it was possible as tree didn't cover it still. Glad to hear it'll heal. Will do as suggested and move tons larger pot with pumice, crushed clay and perlite in bottom and edges.
Glad to hear Akadama isn't a must same as I was told for olives.
Thanks for the link will check it and try to find equivalent soils.
Any work I should do now or later on the branches and leaves or do I just let it be for some time.
Are Elms usually tolerant of root work and pruning ? Anything special ?
I will fertilize once a month 20-20-20 or do u suggest anything different ?
Thanks
 

petegreg

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Sorry for interrupting, a Q for all... I can see some scab like brown things on the trunk. Are these scale insects or is this sth typical for CHE?
 

bonsaidave

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Looks like the bark to me. I have a Chinese elm with similar marks and a quick image search looks like it is common. Maybe Maroun can pick at one to make sure they are not a bugs :D

Maroun, be sure to read up as much as you can. Best to gather as much information as possible before making big changes to the tree.
 

ColinFraser

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but will those marks heal?
Yes and No. If it stays in a small bonsai pot and gets pruned, they may eventually heal, but it will look that way for a long time. If it's planted in a large pot and allowed to grow unhindered, it's possible it could heal in just a growing season or two . . .
 

maroun.c

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Looks like the bark to me. I have a Chinese elm with similar marks and a quick image search looks like it is common. Maybe Maroun can pick at one to make sure they are not a bugs :D

Maroun, be sure to read up as much as you can. Best to gather as much information as possible before making big changes to the tree.


Will try to pick at them to see what they are. It will get the periodical light pesticide spraying anyway as it's in the garden.
Definitely spending time reading and just posted a thread asking for links to good articles to read.
Thanks
 

bilbocannon

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I am a complete noob but if it where mine i would air layer at the red line. Screenshot_2016-07-29-16-10-43.png
 

maroun.c

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Yes and No. If it stays in a small bonsai pot and gets pruned, they may eventually heal, but it will look that way for a long time. If it's planted in a large pot and allowed to grow unhindered, it's possible it could heal in just a growing season or two . . .

Thanks for the reply.
I just removed the wires today most were easy to cut out but a few were already fully imbeded in the branches and I couldn't take them out. Will these affect the tree on the long run?
Scared to move to larger pot and let grow unhindered as I'm not sure I can recover the shape which I'm liking. Believe I'll wait OT out to heal?
Any recommendations on which fertilizer works best for elms ? Anything specific ?
Thanks
 

maroun.c

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I am a complete noob but if it where mine i would air layer at the red line. View attachment 112093
Same here just starting with Bonsai.
Let's see what the Pris say about that. Would be a good learning experience.
Do you suggest this because you like the resulting lower part shape or the upper one?
Might indeed result in a nice lower part after the trunk thickens in few years.
 

bilbocannon

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Same here just starting with Bonsai.
Let's see what the Pris say about that. Would be a good learning experience.
Do you suggest this because you like the resulting lower part shape or the upper one?
Might indeed result in a nice lower part after the trunk thickens in few years.
I like the lower half a lot. If it where mine and i cut the top off at the red line i would use that branch on the left just below the red line as my new leader. Letting it grow down in the direction that it is already growing in.
 

M. Frary

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Will try to pick at them to see what they are
Dont. That is how the bark looks on young elms.
I would slip pot it into a colander until next spring when it's the right time.
I wouldn't layer a thing off of it. I would just cut it off low and regrow a new leader. Way lower than that red mark.
 

petegreg

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Dont. That is how the bark looks on young elms.
I like hearing this. When I dealth with scale insects on my figs I could see similar things on the bark. I have found this on the older bark of my oldest elm. My younger ones have a smooth bark. My guess was it had been infested in the past.
 

maroun.c

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I wouldn't layer a thing off of it. I would just cut it off low and regrow a new leader. Way lower than that red mark.

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.
Can you please elaborate why you think it's best I cut it and that low? Is the curved trunk a bad thing and best to take it off? Anything to the bottom part that would look different with a new top?
Was wondering where the leader went at the top as I see it spreading in all those branches and can't make up where the tree will continue from.
If I cut without air layering can I save the upper part by moving to a pot ? Or is it not worth it?
Thanks
 

M. Frary

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You cut low to get taper. How low depends. I go by if it is an inch in diameter it gets cut at 2 inchest tall. An inch in trunk diameter for approximately every 6 inches in height. In other words a tree finished at 6 inches tall should have at least a diameter of an inch at the base of the trunk.
The curved trunk isn't a bad thing in itself but it's basically the same diameter all of the way up. It lacks taper. Meaning the trunk gets thinner as you go up the tree. Like in nature on real trees.
If you chop one of these trees in the early spring you don't need to cut back to a leader. It will sprout branches right out of the cut and all along what's left of the trunk.
 

ConorDash

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I'd air layer. But that's probably because I did air layer mine.
Quite new myself, had a very similar Chinese elm (that species and shape are almost a right of passage it would seem).

I'm currently 6 weeks in to air layering mine. Good learning experience of multiple techniques and simply caring for it.

These first trees are there to learn from, I don't think mine will ever become anything great at all, not even close to even good by many standards but it's more a personal thing, to me it probably will become great, but only to me :).

You could certainly take Mr M.Frary's advice and maybe in some number of years could start to become something, it's possible. It's totally up to you in what you want to try. Best to try things now on lesser material than try it later on better...
 
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