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Underdog

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Got my first tree (Juniper) last spring from a Japanese guy selling out of his van on the roadside. I since added several along with trying to make my own with varied success by digging and air layering. I've read websites and articles till my head almost exploded.

Looking for suggestions for my 3 newly acquired free trees. I have a friend/customer with a nursery/landscaping biz. He let me pick a few out when there looking at his motorcycle projects I'll be doing. I have a feeling we'll be bartering a lot. I told him I only wanted the ones he won't be using/selling if he's giving them to me. But I'll be back for more.

I already did a hack job on the mop as It was full of dead stuff and not too concerned with it but I'd like to do some good planning on the spruce. One is windswept or cascade and the other informal upright with a nice tapered trunk. It's still very much winter in Ohio with crazy cold coming this week.

Can I whack these things now? Keep in basement till spring and re pot then? I have some ideas for pruning on the upright. Thinking taking off entire left/smaller branch, and about a third/half off of the top and wiring a branch for the new top to exagerate the already nice taper.

I'm all ears/eyes looking for input from you guys who have been there/done that. Thanks for your time!
Mark
 

GrimLore

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Can I whack these things now? Keep in basement till spring and re pot then? I have some ideas for pruning on the upright. Thinking taking off entire left/smaller branch, and about a third/half off of the top and wiring a branch for the new top to exagerate the already nice taper.

Why are you keeping them inside at all?

Did you just cut that Juniper?

The Spruce - have you grown them before and what kind are they?

I cannot comment at all without those details. ;)

Grimmy
 

Underdog

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These 3 just came home yesterday. It's going into the single digits by this weekend. All my existing trees are outside but have brought into basement or garage a few very cold nights we've had. Next winter I will try to bury all in mulch near house and leave out.

Yes, I cut all the dead crap out of the one Gold Mop yesterday. It was pretty bad and may not make it but we'll see. Should have waited I guess but it was 50 and sunny and was anxious.

I think the spruce are blue spruce and no I've not had them before.

Thanks for your time.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Great start! Have fun with these trees!

It will be the instinct of everyone to jump onboard and start telling you what they see wrong with these trees (I was almost starting there myself) but the first and most important thing when starting in bonsai is learning to keep trees alive. Therefore my first advice is that whatever you do, remember it so if it works, you can repeat it, and if it doesn't work you never make the same mistake again :)

These trees are all outdoor trees, and as such, I would hesitate before I did anything drastic on them until spring arrives. I know you are chomping at the bit to start working, but it is generally best to wait until early spring. I don't have much experience with spruce, however, so perhaps someone will have different advice.

When I look at the spruce trees, it appears that they are both grafted trees. This is not unusual with nursery/landscaping stock, however it can cause problems (sometimes) as bonsai. Do you see the swelling at the base of the trunk, and how the character of the bark is different at the base of the trunk versus the upper trunk? That is because the rootstock is a different material than the rest of the tree. In some cases, a grafted tree will grow to the point where you can no longer detect that a graft was ever there (particularly with a low graft union). In some cases you will never be able to hide the graft - especially if the rootstock and the grafted material grow at different rates. You also have to make sure to eliminate any sucker growth, because that growth will belong to the rootstock and not be the same as the upper tree. Just fun stuff to take into consideration...
 

GrimLore

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As Greg said they are outdoor trees and I am guessing they were outside where you received them. If that is the case they are most likely at least partially frozen and they can be. By taking them inside and out you are interrupting dormancy in a bad way damaging the plants.

All three of those do great outside here all Winter in FULL Sun. The only care they receive other then that is watering when they do defrost and sometimes dry out a bit. All three of those should never be allowed to dry out completely which can be a trick even in Winter while in full Sun but can be done. Never water when frozen and just keep an eye on them during dry and windy periods.

The Juniper looks weak - don't work it anymore and it may revive in Spring.

The Spruce as well should be much fuller although I see some back budding on old wood which is good. I would expect all the little new stuff will shrivel up and fall off though if you don't leave them out.

The Spruce look interesting and could be a fun experience but I don't see a cascade there. I would be thinking informal upright and perhaps bunjin/literati.

I will post some shots with proper growth this time of year so you have a goal to achieve in care.

Grimmy
 

GrimLore

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I think the spruce are blue spruce and no I've not had them before.

Up north Blue Spruce should look like this picture all except the lowest few inches of trunk - I find they need a lot of cleanup in Spring but hey it means they are healthy. The smallest branches are all from late December until this picture today. I noticed the foliage looks light on yours and would guess it was warmer and sunny. Left outside they do that and then turn dark during cold periods as we are having right now.

IMG_0269.JPG

Grimmy
 

Underdog

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Bonsai Nut. Thanks for the good info. I chose that tree w/the fat trunk on purpose because I thought it was a good thing? He had about 100 or more in a cold greenhouse. The crooked one (I thought windswept) he gave me because he wouldn't sell. I don't expect any of them to make the shows:) just having fun w/them as you said trying to keep them alive. Killed a couple last year... Yes I'm chomping at the bit. Being a motorcycle mech. this is my slow time and when the weather breaks my biz get crazy at the same time as my trees will I guess.
 

Underdog

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Grim, thanks again. These came out of his unheated greenhouse but it has be 50s and even over 60 several times in the last month. It was warm in there yesterday. Maybe why they are so gray/blue now? I'll leave em on the porch then. Going to be high of ten and low of zero here Saturday. All week sounds like sub-human temps to me. I get the in and out thing you say tho. Bunch of good info. Appreciate the time.
 

GrimLore

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Appreciate the time.

No problem they do "show" lighter in color during warm periods, it takes extended cold for several days to show blue. Winter in the North is a good time to consider some indoor tropicals to keep the cutters sharp ;)

Grimmy
 

Underdog

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Yes, I gathered several already. Playing with several dwarf Shefalara (sp) Unbrellas a money tree and some kinda little ficus thing. Several palms too from the fall closeouts of the big box store. Half dozen house plants too:)

I think I was successful in an air layering of my flowering bush beside the house. Still can't remember the name... lilac/azalea... blooms early spring white/purple. I got a 1 inch plus branch off it to root in pot last year and still has buds for this spring. crossing fingers.

I just get more satisfaction out of starting from scratch but I don't think I have enough patience... this art will teach me that, right?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I love your enthusiasm. Welcome to a whole new bag of crazy. I'm between Chicago and Milwaukee, so my winter is a touch colder than Grimlore's and yours, but not much colder than yours. I hate to be the one to tell you this, "bonsai won't teach you patience", maybe Tai Chi or Meditation will, but bonsai won't. However, there is a work around. MORE TREES. Load yourself up to the point you are always behind on tree care. At that point you will have enough to do on any given day that you can still set aside the ones that need to grow and leave those alone. I'm giving you permission, encouragement to get more trees! I need at least 50 to keep me from overworking to death my "good trees". Actually have over 100 sticks in pots so I am always behind on routine maintenance. A simple fix for patience, get more trees. If you collect your own, they don't have to cost money. Shopping for pots and assorted supplies is another task for the winter doldrums.

Tropicals. There are many that will work, though most benefit from a summer outdoors. Ficus is great for part shade to sun, most other tropicals need nearly full sun, south windows indoors, or a light garden with a long 18 hour day length. Longer days, say 18 hours, can make up for the lower than sunshine light intensity of a light set up. There are a fair number of threads on under lights gardening on this site. I have a Eugenia, aka tropical bush cherry, that is a great "indoor" bonsai for the south window or a light garden. Read up, there are hundreds of candidates for winter indoor tropicals and sub-tropicals. Even the culinary fig, Ficus carica, makes a good indoor bonsai - but it needs more light than the "houseplant type Ficus".

Names, I know its a pain, but common names are regional, this forum is international, over time try to get used to using the scientific names at least once in a post, so that readers will know which plant you are referring to. Yes, Sci names are a foreign language - technically not a language spoken by any living culture, made up of Latin & Greek root words, plus a good dose of words from many other languages. But with time, if you make the effort to try to refer at least once in a thread to the scientific names of your plants, you will get better advice, because there will be no confusion as to what species you are talking about.

On the tag for your "juniper" take a look, make sure it says juniper, because to my eye it looks like it is a Thuja or a Chamaecyparis. All 3 are good bonsai choices, but the Thuja and Chamaecyparis have different "rules" for pruning than a juniper. I could be wrong, pictures are 2 dimensional and limited, so check your tag. There is a Chamaecyparis "Golden Mops" that looks a bit like a golden juniper, especially in winter, and in planning future pruning techniques it is important to know which you have. Thuja and Chamaecyparis do not back bud on older wood, where Juniper back buds fairly reliably.

Our BNut Beloved Overlord is absolutely right, your job no. 1 is to learn the horticulture. Put the pruners away. I know, you can't stand it, but it will do you best.

About winter care - you said these came out of a cold greenhouse. That means they were likely somewhat protected. You are not wrong about being concerned about the temperate drop predicted from 50 & 60 F earlier this week to near Zero F coming tomorrow. Ideal winter storage keeps the trees below 40 F, do you have an unheated, or minimally heater garage or enclosed porch that will stay below 40 but 10 or so degrees above the outside temps. That is where I'd put the trees for the next couple days. Once the worst of the cold has past, they should go back into the yard, The spruces can go into full sun, as Grimlore mentioned. The "Mops" might be best in a spot out of the wind, and in shade for the rest of the winter. Once the pot is thawed and it has warmed a little, full sun for the 'mops' is needed.

While waiting for things to get growing, read up on bonsai potting media. You will need to pick your growing media. My recommendation is to seek out pumice if you can find it. One brand available at Saddle and Feed shops, or farm supply stores is a product call "Dry Stall". Be sure to read the labels, there are several similar looking trade names, but only one is pure pumice with no additives. It should be gray pellets, similar in appearance to Perlite, except quite a bit heavier. It is still lighter than some other commonly used media. Pumice is the one universal component found in most of the better commercial bonsai mixes. Or you can buy pre-mixed bonsai blends. This is more expensive and requires mail order. In Columbus OH there is a nursery that hosts the local bonsai club, it will carry potting mixes. In the Cleveland and Cincinnati area there are places too. Let us know if you are near any of those areas, and I'll give you addresses.

SO right now is the time to get potting mix, and some training trays. I like "Anderson Flats" they are 15 x 15 x 4 inch trays, with a open mesh bottom. They make good pots for the first step from nursery can on the way to a shallow bonsai pot. You can also make your own boxes, most make them out of wood, with mesh for sides and bottom. The open air mesh on the sides helps keep circling roots from forming. Read some of the threads about grow boxes and collendars, you trees are too big for collendars, but the principle is worth understanding.

So, there is plenty of stuff for you to do now. In less than 2 months you will be able to tackle repotting your trees.

By the way I really like your tallest spruce. That one in particular looks like it can make a very nice tree in time. Forget about "styles" and Styling for the next year or two. You will be needing to get the roots under control first. Remember with conifers, you can not work the top and the roots in the same year. No pruning the year you do a repotting. No repotting the year you do pruning of the foliage. One needs to be intact to support the other.

So keep us informed. Feel free to start a separate thread for each individual tree. That way you will get more specific suggestions.

Also, if you get a suggestion that doesn't make sense - don't follow it. Wait, read, and only when you understand the reason, and it makes sense for the tree in front of you "not just in theory" only then follow advice. The tree in front of you has not read the books, and may not be following what the internet says it should be doing. Remember to look at your tree and see if you can figure what it needs, rather than depend on "Internet Guru's" who have not seen your tree, or your yard. or know what your local climate is like. It is the tree in front of you that should inform your decisions.
 

Underdog

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Thanks for the great reply Leo! Chamaecyparis pisifera is my gold mop. and the Blue spruce are Picea pungen. I'm going to have to label my plants as I can't remember their names. Love the idea of more trees to keep me busy but have to be careful I could keep up with them all in spring/summer when my biz gets crazy too. On the plus side, my shop is in my back yard now days so I can at least get them all watered as needed.

I fear I could easily be a case study in what not to do with your plants... Although I just joined the site, I've been reading here for a while and know it can get a bit brutal at times. I have fairly thick skin but not sure I'm ready to confess all my sins here yet. LOL I'm sure you guys would chuckle or be appalled.

I drag raced motorcycles for 20yrs. Built all my own stuff, won a few championships and overall did pretty well. I would always get new guys asking questions and always spent time giving them solid information which I knew worked. Sometimes they listened and sometimes not. I would just shake my head and ask myself why I just spent an hour of my time if they...

Grimmy, I had to look up bunjin/literati.

Thanks again guys. Enjoying the site. Solid info.
 

GrimLore

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Love the idea of more trees to keep me busy but have to be careful I could keep up with them all in spring/summer when my biz gets crazy too. On the plus side, my shop is in my back yard now days so I can at least get them all watered as needed.

If you have suitable spaces outside right where you do most of your work you are golden with a few make shaft shelves. For the Summer watering and fertilizer will be your main concern but all being close by will take very little time. Sounds pretty ideal to me ;) You will also see them and should you have mites, aphids or any of a thousand other things the outdoors invites you will see it quickly and have the ability to proactively treat.

Welcome to Crazy!

Grimmy
 

Underdog

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I’ll start by saying I appreciate the time and solid advice offered above and like I said earlier, some listen and some learn the hard way. I guess it could be fun to watch and see what happens?

The customer who gave me the trees stopped by yesterday to drop off some parts for me to rebuild. Then he asked if I’d chopped down the trees.(not in those words) I said no “because I read on the internet that…” He said your not gonna hurt them junk trees, they’re dormant and if you kill em, I’ll give you more. Call it practice and I’ve got too many of those anyway.

So at 5 o’clock yesterday when I quit working on customer stuff the trees came into the shop… didn’t have the guts to fess up this morning. Don’t think I didn’t read and appreciate every word of the information you guys took your time to provide. But, it is what it is now...

Remember the thread is New and Learning… Thanks MarkIMG_20160210_081140507.jpg IMG_20160210_081215227.jpg IMG_20160210_080733626.jpg IMG_20160210_080750275.jpg
 

sorce

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I like the slanted version!

Is that the before?

Welcome to Crazy!

It just got real!

I'm with you....
Call it practice and I’ve got too many of those anyway.

That's what I'm talking about!

What's really crazy.....is that you are the 3rd Biker in about as many months?

Someone brought up popular mechanic the other day.....

Was there a Bonsai Show at Sturgis recently or.....?

Sorce
 

Underdog

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The last pics are after. The crocked one needs to be viewed from the top I guess to see what all came out. There were parallel branches and I took one plus out and a foot off the other. Here is side by side. shrug

Sturgis Bonsai Show... you weren't there? Come down to the Daytona Bonsai Convention next month. :)
 

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sorce

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For the record....
Leo dropped a "resource" in a regular thread!

patience... this art will teach me that, right?

When you see a healthy tree get vigorous, you will realize the patience that was....

Letting it grow.

There is a huge difference in the mindset of the craftsman, and the artist.
Few are both. All are one.
We argue a lot....but only when we lose sight of who we each are.

Anyway....Ohio is apparently poppin!
Y'all ain't far! I'll be there before 2020 for sure.

I dig the enthusiasm too.....
I'm watching!

Sorce
 

Potawatomi13

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You can also make your own boxes, most make them out of wood, with mesh for sides and bottom. The open air mesh on the sides helps keep circling roots from forming.

This also creates the problem of drying out too quickly and either killing your plants or requiring extra watering:rolleyes: so be aware.
 
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