Your opinion: Where does bonsai end, and 'really big garden planter' start?

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Since I've been seeing huge trees in huge pots lately, I'm wondering what your opinion is on potted garden plants.
When do we call it bonsai? When do we call it a huge freaking tree in a huge freaking pot?

Is niwaki only niwaki because it's not in a pot?

Take Bjorn's huge tornado juniper for instance. Is that not just a human sized, fully grown juniper from the wild, in a bathtub sized pot?

Just curious where you think bonsai ends, and huge tree in huge pot starts.

I think that if the tree is taller than 1 meter, and the pot holds more than 20L of soil, it's just potted culture and no longer bonsai.
Bonsai techniques still apply, and it's sure nice to look at!
But I'm trying to make a distinction, because my friends are calling all of their recently bought fruit trees (2-3 meters tall in a 40L pot) bonsai because after all, it's a huge plant in a tiny pot.

Curious to hear your thoughts!
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I’ve taken a low brow approach to this question - tree in tray = bonsai. Otherwise, we will end up differentiating good bonsai from bad bonsai in discussing what defines bonsai.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Bonsai is an art form that transcends "tree in pot". All bonsai should include:

(1) Natural - trying to create something that you could see in nature
(2) Miniaturization - recreating it in a smaller scale
(3) Age - making it look older / giving it a sense of gravitas
(4) Capturing the passage of time or impermanence

You can absolutely have a large citrus bonsai in a large pot... but is it styled and maintained as a bonsai tree? Or is it just a citrus tree in a pot?

 

[dbonsaiw]

Bonsai is an art form that transcends "tree in pot"

maybe semantics, but I totally agree with this. I want my bonsai to have these traits. But what if I want to bonsai differently? What if I want to keep my stick in a small pot and always nicely pruned? Again, not what I want, but if it was I would think I was caring for a bonsai. what if the tree has no taper? So I’m sticking with semantics- bonsai is any tree in a pot. How we bonsai or what we consider good bonsai I believe is a different question.

 

[Cajunrider]

Bonsai is an art form that transcends "tree in pot". All bonsai should include:

(1) Natural - trying to create something that you could see in nature
(2) Miniaturization - recreating it in a smaller scale
(3) Age - making it look older / giving it a sense of gravitas
(4) Capturing the passage of time or impermanence

You can absolutely have a large citrus bonsai in a large pot... but is it styled and maintained as a bonsai tree? Or is it just a citrus tree in a pot?

I often told my coworker this:
In a rough scale, I take a 10 yr old tree and make it short like a 1 yr old tree but with the proportion and appearance of a 100 yr old tree. All of that is put in a pot yet it looks like a tree in wide open space.

 

[Mad Tabby]

Isn’t the definition of Bonsai “potted tree”? And if I take a 60’ tree down to 6’ isn’t it miniaturized?

I guess my general opinion is how much work are you putting into it and what are your goals? If you take a mugo pine, put it in a pot and just trim it once a year to keep it tidy, that’s just container gardening. Whereas if you’re spending hours staring at it to figure out where you want to take it, that’s bonsai.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Isn’t the definition of Bonsai “potted tree”?

No. That is the literal translation of the two characters in the Japanese language - tree and pot. It is not the definition of the two terms together. It is similar to many compound words in English where the compound word may be suggested by its parts, but ultimately has a very different and unique meaning. For example black and hole.... versus blackhole. You can have a black hole in your pants, but let us hope you dont have a blackhole in your pants.

Cartwheel, catfish, crossbow, daydream, etc.

 

[dbonsaiw]

My I do love me a dead horse to kick.

If I show you a giant tree in a pot and ask if this is a bonsai, isn't that the same as asking if the tree in a pot is a tree in a pot? If so, I would say the answer is most definitely yes.

I've seen many "fine" bonsai that lack the taper and other qualities I would want in my bonsai - does that mean these aren't bonsai because I don't care for it? My wife thinks 2 feet is too tall for a bonsai - so now it's not a bonsai?

Personally, I don't think "bonsai" is a subjective term. It's nothing more than a tree in a pot. Should I have put that tree in a pot already? Is it a nice little tree in a pot? Those are subjective questions. "Bonsai" and "Kokufu winning Bonsai" are different things.

Kind of brings us full circle to the discussion on the "rules" of bonsai. If bonsai refers to something other than a tree in a pot, then there should be clearer guidelines on what these rules are and that would define what a bonsai is. Didn't follow the rules, then you don't have a bonsai. But I think we would generally agree that there is no definitive set of rules that defines the "ultimate" goal of bonsai.

 

[Cajunrider]

I dunno. You guys tell me if this almost 2-story tall tree in a pot a bonsai.

 

[BeepBeepBonsaiSheep]

Bonsai is an art form that transcends "tree in pot". All bonsai should include:

(1) Natural - trying to create something that you could see in nature
(2) Miniaturization - recreating it in a smaller scale
(3) Age - making it look older / giving it a sense of gravitas
(4) Capturing the passage of time or impermanence

You can absolutely have a large citrus bonsai in a large pot... but is it styled and maintained as a bonsai tree? Or is it just a citrus tree in a pot?

I feel the same way. Is its purpose to be a bonsai, or a tree that is in a pot?

I’ll ask another question: at what point is it a “bonsai”? A straight sapling 4” tall isn’t bonsai, but a curved sapling 4” tall in a tiny pot IS a bonsai?

This hobby is up for interpretation many times on those aspects

 

[Mad Tabby]

I dunno. You guys tell me if this almost 2-story tall tree in a pot a bonsai.
View attachment 539302

World’s largest bonsai seems like an oxymoron, but it is what it is.

 

[Mad Tabby]

I feel the same way. Is its purpose to be a bonsai, or a tree that is in a pot?

I’ll ask another question: at what point is it a “bonsai”? A straight sapling 4” tall isn’t bonsai, but a curved sapling 4” tall in a tiny pot IS a bonsai?

This hobby is up for interpretation many times on those aspects

Good points. Especially when some trees naturally curve. Then you have things like Rosemary bonsai. Is Rosemary a tree? Or I saw a blueberry bonsai. Well they’re a bush that doesn’t get over 4’.

 

[Cajunrider]

World’s largest bonsai seems like an oxymoron, but it is what it is.

That is hardly the largest. In the northern provinces of Vietnam, people love to make huge bonsai. Many houses have one or two of these in their front yard.
One big plus: Bonsai theft is exceptionally difficult with these.

 

[Mad Tabby]

That is hardly the largest. In the northern provinces of Vietnam, people love to make huge bonsai. Many houses have one or two of these in their front yard.
One big plus: Bonsai theft is exceptionally difficult with these.

2 stories tall isn’t the worlds largest . I tried to google world’s largest but got a bunch of different answers, so maybe there isn’t an official.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Is its purpose to be a bonsai, or a tree that is in a pot?

I think the tree's purpose is to be a giant tree. We decided to repurpose it. And what does purpose have to do with the nature of a thing? The purpose of a car is to drive. What if it has no gas or I take the engine out, is it no longer a car? After all, it can no longer serve its purpose. "Bonsai" doesn't really describe the state of the tree, but rather the relationship between tree and pot. If we take an award winning bonsai tree out of its pot and plant it in the ground, it is no longer a bonsai because it has no relationship with a pot. It's size, age, taper, etc. have no bearing on whether it is a bonsai. So, I think it works the other way as well - if you put a sapling in a pot it's a bonsai (think shito, not to be confused with shitty bonsai). Thus we can have good bonsai and bad bonsai. Trees that are temporarily bonsai and then grown out further (shito again). A tree that I treat as a bonsai, sell to you and you treat it as pre-bonsai. "Finished bonsai" (a misnomer itself) is a statement about the stage of development and shouldn't be used interchangeably with bonsai.

 

[Cajunrider]

I think the tree's purpose is to be a giant tree. We decided to repurpose it. And what does purpose have to do with the nature of a thing? The purpose of a car is to drive. What if it has no gas or I take the engine out, is it no longer a car? After all, it can no longer serve its purpose. "Bonsai" doesn't really describe the state of the tree, but rather the relationship between tree and pot. If we take an award winning bonsai tree out of its pot and plant it in the ground, it is no longer a bonsai because it has no relationship with a pot. It's size, age, taper, etc. have no bearing on whether it is a bonsai. So, I think it works the other way as well - if you put a sapling in a pot it's a bonsai (think shito, not to be confused with shitty bonsai). Thus we can have good bonsai and bad bonsai. Trees that are temporarily bonsai and then grown out further (shito again). A tree that I treat as a bonsai, sell to you and you treat it as pre-bonsai. "Finished bonsai" (a misnomer itself) is a statement about the stage of development and shouldn't be used interchangeably with bonsai.

All this talk make me think about a conversation I had with a friend. After having several trees broken by storms falling on his house, he decided to cut down all the big trees surrounding his home. I introduced him to Niwaki and he is totally sold. I suspect I will be helping him with formation of Niwaki all around his yard.

 

[Mad Tabby]

All this talk make me think about a conversation I had with a friend. After having several trees broken by storms falling on his house, he decided to cut down all the big trees surrounding his home. I introduced him to Niwaki and he is totally sold. I suspect I will be helping him with formation of Niwaki all around his yard.

Had to look up Niwaki. Now my garden plants aren’t even safe.

 

[BeepBeepBonsaiSheep]

Good points. Especially when some trees naturally curve. Then you have things like Rosemary bonsai. Is Rosemary a tree? Or I saw a blueberry bonsai. Well they’re a bush that doesn’t get over 4’.

If it is SUPPOSED to look like a tree and is pruned in that style, then even a weed could be a bonsai “tree”

I have 2 rosemary plants. They’re my only material that looks like bonsai due to the older look of the trunk