Japanese White Pine Help!!!

[Bakersbullion92]

Ok I’ll admit, I’m overwhelmed and scared. Lots of potential but way to inexperienced to execute. I’ve been watching this for awhile and today I bought it. Now I have not a clue on what to do Help!!! I’ve done hours of research on this cultivar.
Japanese white pine approximate 10 years old…
What are the possible styles for this tree?
How would one go about actually bending and manipulating such a thick trunk line?
Should I clean up crotch growth?
Should I eliminate the whirling? If so how many is it ok to remove?
Do I use cut paste?
How do I deal with sap?
Should I trim candles?
I have so many questions.
I’m honestly lost with this one. It’s absolutely beautiful and don’t want to screw up such a nice tree with endless potential.
It’s about 5 ft long and trunk at base is almost 2 inches.
Thank you in advance!!!

 

[Japonicus]

I pinch my candles back in Spring just as the needles are starting to open at the top of the candle
down to about 25% of the original length.

Fall is the best time to prune and wire.

Whorls then, should be reduced to 2 or 3 at most, but I'd rather wire 1st prior to removing branches
so I know which way to bend and which way to wire, after I've studied the tree and know exactly what I'm wanting.
Keep an inch long stub unless it could become a jin, leave it longer. Cut no branch flush to shoulder.
I follow up with a cut paste myself.

Don't do anything for a while. In fact, I'd only begin transitioning to bonsai soil next Spring
as the buds begin to move. Mid March perhaps, depends on the weather and tree as to when
the roots have begun to move, which occurs I hear a week to 10 days before the buds are moving.

 

[RosePastry]

Well first, congrats on biting the bullet on your tree! Dont panic.

Your trees been growing for years(literally) it will keep on growing as long as you learn to water.

There are a lot of very experienced people on the site who will chime in any moment now.

I focus almost entirely on white and yellow pines and have done so for about 8 years. (A spit in the bucket for some of the masters here)

My tips are:

Start studying up (join a club if you have one) and just get to know your tree. Watch it grow for a season and figure out your trees pine cycle and the depths of its attitude problem.

I started by looking at as many white pines as google allowed and reading Julian Adams book "growing pines for bonsai" as a basic resource.

It helped me figure out a lot of the questions your asking and assisted me on how to identify good advice for single flush pines (which is what white pines are).

Then look through the forum as there are a few wp progressions that can show you what youve gotten yourself into.

Best of luck! keep asking questions and take plenty of pictures!

 

[penumbra]

To be honest, I don't have many pines in development. I have been known to be more timid with my approach to pines than with other plants. I have been known to just observe them, sometimes for years, before I whole heatedly dive in. Somehow, this has served me well and now some of my pines are developing into very nice little trees. I guess what I am saying is to keep the plant healthy and happy and just study it until it tells you what to do. Obviously not a path for everyone, but it is for me.

 

[Japonicus]

What cultivar is this one @Bakersbullion92 ?
The graft is well done.
I agree it is best to do nothing, but to keep the tree alive once in good soil.
Do not bare root, rather remove more old soil with each repot, starting with 50%.
Last year I fried a nice JWP cultivar on an ugly graft.
I removed enough foliage, that shaded interior foliage became suddenly exposed
(it was rather tight) and could not bare the Sun exposure.
Which I did not take into account, being a full Sun loving tree...

JWP do not back bud as with other trees, being the single flush they are.
They might, but you cannot depend on it. So you stand risk of losing a branch
that is cut behind all terminal growth (no growing tips remaining).
This makes the interior growth more precious, and should be preserved unless it does not lend
to the desired end goal.

How would one go about actually bending and manipulating such a thick trunk line?

Looks like it already has some pretty good movement here
The remaining trunk line should not be too difficult to wire up, keeping the bottom 1/3 to 1/2 as is.
Use copper wire properly sized. That is, if you're already experienced with wiring in a good way.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

^ bookmark and add this free tutorial to your cart and play each lesson over and over.

Now what I cut off in your picture above...not to all go in one go of it.
Also,

(join a club if you have one)

This is great if there's anywhere close as a day trip. You don't have to do anything with your tree
at any meeting or club event, but as long as it is not exhibiting and pests or disease, take it with you
and ask questions. You know, we don't see many cascading JWP, and it is impossible to discount
your tree as not doable for cascade in 2D photos. A formal cascade, can always be turned into an informal upright
tree if the cascade does not make the goal. Then it is just as it is now, a sacrificial branch, except it would be wired
and dropped down with movement. These are down the road goal marks. All that foliage now, will help drive
root recovery when you pot it up into a training pot.
@Shogun610 is in PA and might be able to steer you in the direction of a good club.
@Bakersbullion92 do you have any pictures of any pines or other conifers you have trained into bonsai
from nursery containers? What is your experience with bonsai?

 

[Shogun610]

If you’re looking to join a club, you can join PA Bonsai society. We meet in Lafayette Hill area just outside of Chestnut Hill Neighborhood of Philadelphia.

 

[pandacular]

Keep an inch long stub unless it could become a jin, leave it longer. Cut no branch flush to shoulder.

do you eventually cut this back once it's started to heal? is this to prevent dieback?

 

[Japonicus]

do you eventually cut this back once it's started to heal? is this to prevent dieback?

Yes

 

[pandacular]

are there any signs to look for before reaching for the knob cutters? (last question to prevent hijacking the thread!)

 

[Bakersbullion92]

What cultivar is this one @Bakersbullion92 ?
The graft is well done.
I agree it is best to do nothing, but to keep the tree alive once in good soil.
Do not bare root, rather remove more old soil with each repot, starting with 50%.
Last year I fried a nice JWP cultivar on an ugly graft.
I removed enough foliage, that shaded interior foliage became suddenly exposed
(it was rather tight) and could not bare the Sun exposure.
Which I did not take into account, being a full Sun loving tree...

JWP do not back bud as with other trees, being the single flush they are.
They might, but you cannot depend on it. So you stand risk of losing a branch
that is cut behind all terminal growth (no growing tips remaining).
This makes the interior growth more precious, and should be preserved unless it does not lend
to the desired end goal.

View attachment 502117
Looks like it already has some pretty good movement here
The remaining trunk line should not be too difficult to wire up, keeping the bottom 1/3 to 1/2 as is.
Use copper wire properly sized. That is, if you're already experienced with wiring in a good way.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

^ bookmark and add this free tutorial to your cart and play each lesson over and over.

Now what I cut off in your picture above...not to all go in one go of it.
Also,

This is great if there's anywhere close as a day trip. You don't have to do anything with your tree
at any meeting or club event, but as long as it is not exhibiting and pests or disease, take it with you
and ask questions. You know, we don't see many cascading JWP, and it is impossible to discount
your tree as not doable for cascade in 2D photos. A formal cascade, can always be turned into an informal upright
tree if the cascade does not make the goal. Then it is just as it is now, a sacrificial branch, except it would be wired
and dropped down with movement. These are down the road goal marks. All that foliage now, will help drive
root recovery when you pot it up into a training pot.
@Shogun610 is in PA and might be able to steer you in the direction of a good club.
@Bakersbullion92 do you have any pictures of any pines or other conifers you have trained into bonsai
from nursery containers? What is your experience with bonsai?

So I have minimal experience in all aspects of bonsai per se, I am pretty good at wiring and keeping plants alive. I’ve had a green thumb for years but just recently got into bonsai after my wife bought one in beginning of spring. I do have small collection of Japanese Maples and only one or two of them will eventually become bonsai. I’m also very patient and think very hard before making any decisions with plants. I do have a procumbans that was nursery stock but is actually two plants. So it’s definitely in training as I cut a lot of it to expose the trunk, find the front etc.the left side and the right side will be separated when the weather permits. I didn’t want to remove to much and risk losing it. I do have some others but haven’t gotten pictures of them yet.

 

[Bakersbullion92]

What cultivar is this one @Bakersbullion92 ?
The graft is well done.
I agree it is best to do nothing, but to keep the tree alive once in good soil.
Do not bare root, rather remove more old soil with each repot, starting with 50%.
Last year I fried a nice JWP cultivar on an ugly graft.
I removed enough foliage, that shaded interior foliage became suddenly exposed
(it was rather tight) and could not bare the Sun exposure.
Which I did not take into account, being a full Sun loving tree...

JWP do not back bud as with other trees, being the single flush they are.
They might, but you cannot depend on it. So you stand risk of losing a branch
that is cut behind all terminal growth (no growing tips remaining).
This makes the interior growth more precious, and should be preserved unless it does not lend
to the desired end goal.

View attachment 502117
Looks like it already has some pretty good movement here
The remaining trunk line should not be too difficult to wire up, keeping the bottom 1/3 to 1/2 as is.
Use copper wire properly sized. That is, if you're already experienced with wiring in a good way.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

^ bookmark and add this free tutorial to your cart and play each lesson over and over.

Now what I cut off in your picture above...not to all go in one go of it.
Also,

This is great if there's anywhere close as a day trip. You don't have to do anything with your tree
at any meeting or club event, but as long as it is not exhibiting and pests or disease, take it with you
and ask questions. You know, we don't see many cascading JWP, and it is impossible to discount
your tree as not doable for cascade in 2D photos. A formal cascade, can always be turned into an informal upright
tree if the cascade does not make the goal. Then it is just as it is now, a sacrificial branch, except it would be wired
and dropped down with movement. These are down the road goal marks. All that foliage now, will help drive
root recovery when you pot it up into a training pot.
@Shogun610 is in PA and might be able to steer you in the direction of a good club.
@Bakersbullion92 do you have any pictures of any pines or other conifers you have trained into bonsai
from nursery containers? What is your experience with bonsai?

 

[Bakersbullion92]

If you’re looking to join a club, you can join PA Bonsai society. We meet in Lafayette Hill area just outside of Chestnut Hill Neighborhood of Philadelphia.

I absolutely want to join a club. I’m right outside of Philadelphia in Aston PA

 

[Bakersbullion92]

I absolutely want to join a club. I’m right outside of Philadelphia in Aston PA

When do you meet up?

 

[Shogun610]

I absolutely want to join a club. I’m right outside of Philadelphia in Aston PA

Upcoming Meetings — The Pennsylvania Bonsai Society

www.pabonsai.org

 

[Bakersbullion92]

I pinch my candles back in Spring just as the needles are starting to open at the top of the candle
down to about 25% of the original length.

Fall is the best time to prune and wire.

Whorls then, should be reduced to 2 or 3 at most, but I'd rather wire 1st prior to removing branches
so I know which way to bend and which way to wire, after I've studied the tree and know exactly what I'm wanting.
Keep an inch long stub unless it could become a jin, leave it longer. Cut no branch flush to shoulder.
I follow up with a cut paste myself.

Don't do anything for a while. In fact, I'd only begin transitioning to bonsai soil next Spring
as the buds begin to move. Mid March perhaps, depends on the weather and tree as to when
the roots have begun to move, which occurs I hear a week to 10 days before the buds are moving.

And how would I go about transition from nursery soil to bonsai soil? This is close to a 5 gallon pot approximately. I would want to try and put in a large bonsai training pot to train roots. What size pot would I get? 17x11x4?

 

[Paradox]

And how would I go about transition from nursery soil to bonsai soil? This is close to a 5 gallon pot approximately. I would want to try and put in a large bonsai training pot to train roots. What size pot would I get? 17x11x4?

That is probably a good size to start with.
I'm sorry I haven't has a chance to respond to the first post with questions yet. Was too tired after work and I'm back at work on my phone now. It will be much easier to respond on my computer and show you some pictures of my JWP that I am developing from nursery stock. I'll try to get to it today

 

[RosePastry]

are there any signs to look for before reaching for the knob cutters? (last question to prevent hijacking the thread!)

The strength and time to cut is slightly different per cultivar but I find once I know the tree the process is about the same with a slow and steady process.

My largest wp is very slow to start moving its energy around but fast to grow on sacrifice branches without affecting the main trunk.

When I work on cutting the sacrifice I make each change until it has this weird callus forming before moving on. kind of like an air layer. Protective measures like cut paste are a matter of preference and humidity so I would ask someone in the area what they do and go with that.

 

[Bob Hunter]

Don't do anything now Go to a workshop at @Naturesway next spring... Jim lists all the workshops on Jan 1. Hopefully Bjorn will be back next year! or take a one on one with Jim Doyle.

 

[jszg]

The variety is probably 'Tanima no yuki' or 'Fukai' if I had to guess, although the variegation is subtler than I'd expect. Either way, it is a nice tree. Would make a fantastic yard specimen, too.
"Pick" one side that has the least obtrusive graft line, then look at the rest of the plant. Since it is variegated, and this cultivar's needles are a little on the long, twisty side, this is best suited for a larger tree. You could do nothing for a few years, let the upper part act as a sacrifice and then cut it back to @Japonicus suggestion, or just do it this year. I personally think the pink and white fresh growth will look cool, but some may disagree. Just know that it will affect it's vigor. A little deadwood carving might be needed to fix up the graft in a few years, but it probably isn't the extreme thunbergii/parviflora combo, instead maybe sylvestris (bark looks too rough for strobus or strobiformis) so it wont be as harsh a graft union some JWP bonsai have.

 

[Japonicus]

So I have minimal experience in all aspects of bonsai per se, I am pretty good at wiring

You are, off to a good start, but please, do not miss out on the link I provided for
bonsai wiring essentials with Colin Lewis previously above.

Here, ^ your 60º coils of the wire is perfect, and what I've been taught is proper for wiring my JWP
but is not limited to the species. I just happened to be critiqued on my wiring while using 45º coils
which is more springy than @60º with my JWP.
So choosing the proper sized material is key for staying power and economics as well.
It also is less obtrusive, or easier on the branch and foliage, as well as application of the wire.
Plus, proper wiring is harder to detect. I mean it is more incognito, or camouflaged. It blends well.
Your 90º coils are worthy of critique. Wasteful and crossing wire in your pic I posted here above,
the crossing wire will cause more damage as the tree puts on girth, which can happen before you know it.
JWP is a slow grower, so your patience will pay off. This also means the wire will stay on longer than any juniper.


Here the wire is not properly anchored using the 90º coil at the beginning of a branch.
Watch the videos, and you'll quickly get much better input on how to anchor your wires.
These are things that will help you when you get around to styling your new JWP or any other tree.

Thank you for adding the pictures of your procumbens. Immediately, I see the 1st thing we gotta get
you to change in your approach to your JWP. Starting with your procumbens, and this is why I asked
if you would post any pictures you might have and your experience level, so to get an idea of your approach
to other stock.
You've removed interior growth. Reverse that to begin with exterior growth, removing foliage from the outside, in.
Your JWP will not back bud and fill in. You don't want pom poms with long bare lanky branches
having apical tufts of foliage on the exterior.
Another reversal, would be to approach the roots 1st. The extra foliage are as solar panels gathering/driving energy
to speed, or to help with any chances of recovery after you repot. Once the tree has sorted out everything
after insulting the feet, and new growth is evident above (not meaning the same Springtime as new growth
is going to push after repotting anyway, if you didn't make any fatal repot errors), then you can begin, begin,
to style your tree, but not in one fail swoop or one go of it. I would begin with some whorl removal the year after repotting
if the tree isn't sulking from the aftercare of repotting. The pruning can be done early Fall, or late Winter (mid-late February).
In March the roots will begin moving at some point.

That one aerial root will need attention. So take this to your workshops and get input on that.
I personally would either remove it, or tuck it into the soil when potting it up, in a way that it would be pinned against
the trunk to fuse together as it grows.

You've started with a nicely grown, well grafted JWP. Hoping you can create a nice tree with it.
You're going to need a good supply of bonsai soil and some basic tools of the trade.
If I may, I would recommend both concave and knob cutters, jin pliers are so useful for so many things
including wiring. Bonsai wire cutters, a root hook, rake and tweezers. An assortment of copper wire.

Copper training wire

Here at Adams bonsai he offers an assortment of annealed copper wire from size #20 up to #6 for $80.
Copper wire must be annealed for bonsai use. If it is not, it is harder to apply, yet does not have the holding power
plus it's shiny. Fire annealed copper wire will blend in, and it takes a smaller size to work than aluminum wire does.
Start wiring the foliage on your procumbens with small aluminum wire to gain some experience before moving
onto pine branches. Now you have a Christmas wish list...