In ground What else should I do prior to root pruning

[Japonicus]

Katsura planted 4/2018
I just want to root prune and replant where it is, then grow box in 2 years.

This was before I did a little pruning today.

I removed the central part of the tri-fork on the right today.



I will remove this bottom left trunk eventually, but I am leaving its foliage during recoup from root pruning next month.

The 2 major left right roots are not good? Should I be trying to shorten those side roots when I lift it?

 

[TrevorLarsen]

I would say prune some of the branches harder so you can develop taper in them, but that’s just my thought.

 

[Japonicus]

I would say prune some of the branches harder so you can develop taper in them, but that’s just my thought.

The last time I took somebody advice to cut back harder...this is what happened

Here it is as I wanted to leave this Mt Maple to recover post lifting


I think I was less aggressive than instructed here ^



It never recovered. It put out exceedingly short tight internodes and small leaves.

 

[Japonicus]

I wasn't in a hurry. It'd been in ground 10 yrs and was pretty vigorous.
So I was planning on keeping more foliage and start cutting back after I get it into
a grow box in a couple of years. I have a crabapple, but no maples to show for my
time of growing them in ground. I strongly feel like the Mt Maple above would still be with
me had I followed this plan.

 

[Scorpius]

Either hard prune or root prune, not both. I never do two major insults in one year to any plant whether bonsai or in the ground growing.

 

[Shibui]

I'd like to say chop those roots hard but it is Japanese maple and they can be unpredictable as you have experienced (I suspect your dead maple was probably one of the rare occasions one dies for some reason)
You'll still need to reduce those strong roots so for the sake of safety I'd do it a bit slower. Chop them further out to leave some smaller roots to draw sap and keep the roots alive. Cut a ring of bark right round those 2 roots or apply a wire torniquet as you would for layering then make sure the area is well buried and kept damp through the growing season.
Note that when chopping roots or layering roots the vast majority of new roots will grow from the cut surface (closest to the trunk). My experience is very few new roots further back so best to make the cuts closer to the trunk where you need roots.

In hindsight that root work would have been better done in the very early stages.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Personally, I can’t get JMs to behave anything like a trident and have had nothing but failure and disappointment when performing hard blind chops. I will be pruning back more conservatively on my JMs come spring.

 

[leatherback]

The last time I took somebody advice to cut back harder...this is what happened

Such a shame.

It feels however not a pruning thing, but a planting thing. It sits very high in its box. Always good to plant deep, especially after digging from the field, in my experience.

 

[Dav4]

Such a shame.

It feels however not a pruning thing, but a planting thing. It sits very high in its box. Always good to plant deep, especially after digging from the field, in my experience.

I agree that it should have been planted deeper, but it could also have been a timing thing as well. I've had whole branches on an A. palmatum die after hard pruning after bud break but before the spring flush hardened off. I wouldn't have any qualms chopping a healthy palmatum back hard like that, even with some meaningful root reduction, but the timing has to be right.

 

[leatherback]

I agree that it should have been planted deeper, but it could also have been a timing thing as well. I've had whole branches on an A. palmatum die after hard pruning after bud break but before the spring flush hardened off. I wouldn't have any qualms chopping a healthy palmatum back hard like that, even with some meaningful root reduction, but the timing has to be right.

No matter the reason, it stinks to have a tree not make it.

 

[Dav4]

No matter the reason, it stinks to have a tree not make it.

Agreed. The material had loads of potential . Best one can do is learn from it and move on.

 

[leatherback]

Agreed. The material had loads of potential . Best one can do is learn from it and move on.

aaaand.. Buy More Trees

 

[Japonicus]

I agree that it should have been planted deeper, but it could also have been a timing thing as well.

When the tree looked like this on March 24th 2020...



This is what was done ...

It sits very high in its box. Always good to plant deep, especially after digging from the field,

Maybe it's just the picture making it look high in the box. I recall using 12 gallons of soil in the box.
Here are the roots that sat as low as possible in the grow box...



There was a base layer of bonsai soil 1st of course, but the box was full

Agreed. The material had loads of potential . Best one can do is learn from it and move on.

There was the initial lift from ground and root work with conservative branch pruning.
I was advised the following year to reduce the canes. Therein lies the reasoning for failure in this case.
I did it, it's my fault. I went against my gut feeling.

Moving on...we have some good rains coming and a heat up this weekend. Should I lift and root prune after the ground
dries somewhat, or while the digging is easier? Seems to me that it would be easier to deal with replanting while the
ground is a bit more crumbly than muddy cakes. Thoughts?
Thanks for the ideas guys. I am not as comfortable with deciduous trees.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

First one has to have a goal height established. Then build each succeeding section to be about 1/2 the length of the previous section. Takes about 1-1.5 year to caliber out the succeeding sections.

But with maples it’s really all about roots first. Not the top hamper. Although with a strong one like yours one can do both simultaneously.

This is a really good time to get some JM seedling (kaede bonsai-en?) or bigger and either approach graft or thread graft these to fill in the gaps between those big chunky roots and begin to fill these areas properly.

Likely take 1-3 years to get these areas attended to… and a couple more years to grow the roots.

Been working hard to build my younger maples for four years now with good success. But watching Andrew Robson at a workshop yesterday and lecture today really opened my eyes and helped fill in the gaps of my deciduous knowledge. One thing Andrew spoke about is to work out your strategy properly, prune accordingly and follow the plan each year. Otherwise each first branch pruning ends up being done over and over.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Dav4]

When the tree looked like this on March 24th 2020...

View attachment 530664

This is what was done ...

View attachment 530665

View attachment 530666


Maybe it's just the picture making it look high in the box. I recall using 12 gallons of soil in the box.
Here are the roots that sat as low as possible in the grow box...
View attachment 530671

View attachment 530672
There was a base layer of bonsai soil 1st of course, but the box was full


There was the initial lift from ground and root work with conservative branch pruning.
I was advised the following year to reduce the canes. Therein lies the reasoning for failure in this case.
I did it, it's my fault. I went against my gut feeling.

Moving on...we have some good rains coming and a heat up this weekend. Should I lift and root prune after the ground
dries somewhat, or while the digging is easier? Seems to me that it would be easier to deal with replanting while the
ground is a bit more crumbly than muddy cakes. Thoughts?
Thanks for the ideas guys. I am not as comfortable with deciduous trees.

Just a few thoughts on the demise of your tree-
Your tree would have probably been fine if you cut back the sub trunks when it was initially collected and placed in the grow box.
The soil height really isn't that bad in the box, but I generally want to cover all the roots after collection.
I'm not sure how well secured the tree was in the grow box. I've had trees become severely weakened due to poor technique in securing tree to container
I wonder how strong the tree was when you cut it back. The Japanese maples that I've collected and severely pruned (greater than 90% root reduction and trunk chopped) tend to put out multiple, vigorous shoots that grow 18- 24" long or more the year of collection. If your tree didn't grow well after placing it in the box, chopping it back only weakened it further. Anyway, I hope my ramblings make some sense for you.


As far as your current project is concerned, there's no harm digging now as long as you've got frost free spot to keep it afterwards. Bottom heat is even better. I do agree with DSD that root grafts will likely be needed at some point. You could try to source some seedlings now or plan on doing the work next spring. Good luck!

 

[Japonicus]

This is a really good time to get some JM seedling (kaede bonsai-en?) or bigger and either approach graft or thread graft these to fill in the gaps between those big chunky roots and begin to fill these areas properly.

Likely take 1-3 years to get these areas attended to… and a couple more years to grow the roots.

Great idea as this is the general time frame I mentioned 1st.
How many seedlings should I attempt?
I found 3 ft ones on ebay for $5 ea but California local pick up only.

I guess, I would do a couple evenly spaced in fron and back then how many on the large side roots? 2 front 2 back each for a total of 12? IDK

 

[Japonicus]

Just a few thoughts on the demise of your tree-
Your tree would have probably been fine if you cut back the sub trunks when it was initially collected and placed in the grow box.
The soil height really isn't that bad in the box, but I generally want to cover all the roots after collection.
I'm not sure how well secured the tree was in the grow box. I've had trees become severely weakened due to poor technique in securing tree to container
I wonder how strong the tree was when you cut it back. The Japanese maples that I've collected and severely pruned (greater than 90% root reduction and trunk chopped) tend to put out multiple, vigorous shoots that grow 18- 24" long or more the year of collection. If your tree didn't grow well after placing it in the box, chopping it back only weakened it further. Anyway, I hope my ramblings make some sense for you.


As far as your current project is concerned, there's no harm digging now as long as you've got frost free spot to keep it afterwards. Bottom heat is even better. I do agree with DSD that root grafts will likely be needed at some point. You could try to source some seedlings now or plan on doing the work next spring. Good luck!

Makes sense not rambling at all.
As for frost, no protection. I mean I could make an open canopy for the in ground project
protecting the foliage once leafed out.
I doubt much if any ground freezing is left in this current Spring for me but frosts up till Mothers Day.

 

[Japonicus]

With the larger rooted whips in this video he only does 3 - 4 root grafts/year.
Says he doesn't want too many going on at once. One ? I have is about the removing
of the bark on the new stock. His looks almost like he de-barked all the way around the whip.
Not very detailed really for me having never done such techniques.
The seedlings at Kaede bonsai-en look pretty tiny which is why I suggested 10-12 grafts.
If so, then it looks like I should do this maybe 4 at a time?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Great idea as this is the general time frame I mentioned 1st.
How many seedlings should I attempt?
I found 3 ft ones on ebay for $5 ea but California local pick up only.

I guess, I would do a couple evenly spaced in fron and back then how many on the large side roots?

Working on maples is like saving for a 401k with investors adding improvements over time. Root improvements around the trunk positively affect the top hamper development later on.

Spacing is dependent on the gaps between the roots. Grafts go against the trunk to fill in the gaps between the large roots first.

I can see five areas of probable gaps on the images where grafts could be used, yet can’t see the backside. Check out the gaps between the roots and see how much room there is to practically fit in this years seedlings.

The example tree in the video didn’t seem to have as many probable graft points as yours. So forcing more onto the video example tree would have been difficult. The technique shown was solid.

Have seen many root grafts on a large maple like yours all at once, yet they were done by experts. Six would be my max for one year on a big tree like yours. Each takes time. So budget more time then you think to start with. Also personally do not favor a mototool for these. Others may.

btw. The large roots generally are cut backwards to a practicable area that will keep enough feeder roots to keep the flow strong. The idea is to force the growth back a bit if possible to promote feeder roots inboard of the tip. I see some really nice roots on the root at 3 o’clock on the top of the two images.

One way to promote inner root growth is to make scrapes where new roots would be nice. The put rooting gel ‘clonex’ on the area (not powder) . Wait a bit, then pack well soaked sphagnum moss in the areas. Works well in maples and azaleas in my experience.

Finally, really strong roots can easily be cut and split with care. Can see a couple that might be likely candidates the other is at 5 oclock on the lower photo of two. . One already has a fork asking to be improved. Once split, place a stone etc to keep the gap open. Again use the rooting gel/sphagnum technique in the gap. Splitting is can be done multiple times to get the desired effect.

Hope that helps

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

With the larger rooted whips in this video he only does 3 - 4 root grafts/year.
Says he doesn't want too many going on at once. One ? I have is about the removing
of the bark on the new stock. His looks almost like he de-barked all the way around the whip.

only debark the area in contact with the exposed cambium….!

Not very detailed really for me having never done such techniques.

Check out this really good Japanese video. Shows both a standard root graft and a two dual thread/approach root graft. The latter is new to me!
btw Jonas at Bonsai tonight has pins for grafts.

cheers
DSD sends