Is America Occupied Territory?

[dbonsaiw]

I think we can all agree that white Europeans are not native to the Americas (or Australia). Rather, America was colonized and is built on land taken from the actual native peoples living on this land. Does that make America a "colonizer" of the US? Same question for Australia. Same question for Canada.

And assuming these lands are "white colonial settler projects", my next question (especially for all the liberals out there in bonsai land) is when will you be giving the property you bought back to the natives? Isn't it time to end your occupations? What exactly are you waiting for? At least go out and march en masse to have your countries end their "occupations".

Next question - what is an acceptable level of "resistance" that natives can use to force us to end our "occupations"?. I purchased my home fair and square - its on land that once belonged to the Matinecock tribe. Can members of the Matinecock tribe rape my wife? What about hostage taking, surely that is a proper level of "resistance" by "occupied peoples"? At the very least, they should be allowed to fire thousands of rockets into civilian communities.

Final question - is it not the obligation of EU countries as the "defenders of international law" to boycott, sanction and divest from these "white colonial settler projects"? How can the EU continue to send arms to Australia while it perpetuates this belligerent occupation of Aboriginal tribes? Shouldn't they be arming the natives so it can be a "fair fight"?

Now, who wants to allow (i) the UN, (ii) professors; or (iii) mobs of people to answer these questions for them?

 

[dbonsaiw]

Perhaps Native Americans can liberate their occupied lands in the manner that appears to be the most acceptable to people nowadays - they can parachute into the next lollapoolza from hot air balloons and just start off’ing the concert goers. Take a bunch of hostages as well.

But they will need a jingle - no way to get colleges on board without a jingle. How about “from sea to shining sea, native America will be free”? If the concert is in Palestine, Ohio, they won’t even have to change their bumper stickers.

But Dave, the U.S. military is far stronger than a native tribe. How can they be assured the ability to do this again and again until the land is free? No worries, they can hide among their people and use them as shields. This way they are safe until the next concert.

Intersectional that

 

[dbonsaiw]

Where my progressives at? I have been hearing from you for almost two years that it’s ok to rape and slaughter innocent people because of “occupation”. Of course, there the term “occupation” is seriously disputed. But you live in clearly occupied lands in the U.S., Canada and Australia. I want you to now state that YOU do not have a right to defend yourself from barbarism. And if you do, it’s a war crime. The natives should have absolutely no responsibility for their actions - that’s what you keep telling me isn’t it?

And if the Navajo took US hostages and brought them back to Navajo territory, what exactly would you expect your government to do in this situation? Send in their all-powerful military or reward the Navajo by giving them Montana? What if college kids start wearing Navajo dress, does that change your answer?

Forgive me, but it appears that you don’t believe in your own stupid rhetoric and just want to apply it to one tiny minority.

 

[TerminalMoraine]

Yes.

This place was likely a veritable “garden of Eden” for the native peoples in the neck of the woods I’m from: mild ish winters, not a ton of predators, abundant harbors/whales/shellfish, deer, etc.

Then a bunch of corny white Europeans with starched collars and reeking of BO rolled into port and said “this piece of the earth belongs to the Dutch east India company/Spain/GB/etc now”. A concept so stupid that I probably wouldn’t know what to make of these fools if I were in the shoes of First Nations people.

What followed was a (near) genocide of a lot of people around the globe. It boggles the mind.

The fact is, this country is an idea built upon a foundation of slavery, theft, and genocide. As a country, we’ve fought the future. Kicking and screaming. We don’t want to talk about these things because they’re uncomfortable. Because it goes against an idea that was sold to us over generations.

The idea in itself (a democratic republic by/for the people) is not a bad one. It’s clear to anybody that that idea has been degraded to a comical parody of what it once was (if it ever was a thing that existed in reality)

The reality is that nobody heals until we start doing better as a species. With each passing week I wonder how much longer we have left before a real existential threat to our species presents itself and we find ourselves woefully incapable of handling it. Personally, if I were in a position to own land, I would feel compelled to touch base with the local tribe and offer my help or some use of “my” land: oh, I have a nice stream. You ever want to come fish it, feel free”.

It would be delusional to think that any kind of reparations could make up for the past at this point. Maybe the best we can do is try and go forward as neighbors and friends who help one another.

My family immigrated here from Scandinavia in 1908. Names on that wall at Ellis Island. They worked and lived in a Scandinavian working class immigrant neighborhood in Brooklyn. We never took part in any of aforementioned shit (although some of Scandinavia waited too long to dead the whole slavery thing…) but, still, I feel as though an injustice or two occurred and if I can do something at all to move the needle towards a better direction in the future, I am happy to do so.

We are not free until *all* of us are free.

Edit: I just reread your posts and realized you are an insane person. It’s would almost be amusing how your unique brand of things is just the other side of the coin to the cult-MAGA mentality if it weren’t such a tragedy for the world at large.

Whether you bought, stole, or fabricated your “birthright”, that does not make it objective reality.

Sorry. Good luck

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

Human history. That's the topic of this thread. Peoples have been conquering other peoples for our entire history. It's not an American thing. It's not an Asian thing. It's not an African or European thing. If we were to return land, who would we return it to? The tribe/clan/people we took it from? Or whomever that tribe took it from? Or maybe the one before that? And I'm not talking just North America. I'm referring to a global land refund. It's a rather ridiculous moot point. At this point, progress would be significant if we could just learn to either live in harmony, or leave each other alone.

Slavery has existed in one form or another forever. Biblical slavery was voluntary, and masters were to treat them kindly, sort of as good employees, not as lesser beings.
Britain and the United States were among the first countries to abolish legal slavery. Some of the first slave owners in the US were black. The last people to free their slaves in North America was the Choctaw tribe, if I recall. One little-known fact is there were actually a lot of white slaves on this continent before the beginning of the United States. Slaves brought from Africa were captured and sold by other African tribes and kept on beaches in cages, which was just as evil as the ownership of these same men, women, and children who didn't die a miserable death crossing the Atlantic Ocean.

This country is not perfect, but from my perspective, it's way better than any other. Why else are so many people trying to immigrate here? Because it's way better than where they are coming from.

 

[TerminalMoraine]

I love when people *try* and justify the ownership of another human being.

Playing devils advocate for that kind of shit is pretty much a dead giveaway that someones a racist (closeted or not).

You skew history into whatever perspective fits your desired narrative. That’s not how history works. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Good luck dawg

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

Where did I justify anything? Acknowledging ugly and evil truths? I sleep at night because I have God's peace. The fact I have never and will never be involved in slavery has nothing to do with that. Continual victimization of people according to wrongs committed against their ancestors several generations ago only perpetuates a victim mindset. The evil has stopped except in the minds and hearts of those who are constantly told that they have no rights, or that they are oppressed, even though reality contradicts this fallacy. It's those people who are using prior wrongs to oppress people in mind only who are actually holding back those same people from accomplishing everything they can. Who is the oppressor?

Yet, when an evil does occur to a people in the modern world, the actual victims are vilified and condemned as brutal, violent criminals when they seek justice. Make it Make sense.

 

[TerminalMoraine]

Yet, when an evil does occur to a people in the modern world, the actual victims are vilified and condemned as brutal, violent criminals when they seek justice. Make it Make sense.

Oh, I just got it; you’re talking about the active genocide taking place against the people of Palestine. It was so obvious. My sincere apologies!

The plight of the Palestinian people is one we should all care about! They’re being wiped out by an unjustified and psychotic ethno-state. I’m glad we’re on the same page now.

Back in the day, this dude you probably know (and love) tried this kinda thing in Europe. Eventually, people (kids) like my grandfather went and dropped enough bombs on his ass to make him second guess the whole endeavor. That’s a bit of a reductionist view but, still: valid and a decent example of how such vile people should be treated.

So glad we’re in agreement

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

I think I'll bow out of this conversation. It's impossible to debate a person who has no point and picks and chooses which evils are wrong and which are justified. Evil is evil.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Eventually, people (kids) like my grandfather went and dropped enough bombs on his ass to make him second guess the whole endeavor.

Perspective is invaluable. There was a little man in Gaza who had similar ideas. So I would restate your line a bit differently - “eventually, people like my friends and family went and dropped enough bombs on his Hamas ass to make him second guess the whole endeavor”.

Ask yourself if we care about the plight of the Palestinian people or if we really just want to destroy Israel. They aren’t the same. Because if we cared about them, we wouldn’t leave them for 5 generations in actual apartheid conditions in Lebanon as “refugees”. We wouldn’t let them be subjugated by Hamas. We wouldn’t let their leaders reject each and every peace offer made over 80 years.

We have all seen Israel’s military capabilities by now. If Israel wanted to genocide Gaza nothing would be moving after 15 minutes. It’s clearly not their intent. Give the line up already. In any event, I’ve been hearing about this “genocide” BS for 20 years over which period the population of Gaza has increased 1000 fold. That’s a pretty lousy genocide by any standard.

What’s nice is that now that Assad has moved to Russia, Hezbollah is weakened, Hamas is almost gone and Iran just got bitch slapped, Israel is the safest (and strongest) it has been in my lifetime. Normalization with Arab nations will follow under Trump. Every nation saw the skies of Tehran and put in their orders with the Israeli military. There will be no boycotting of weapons bla bla - Europe wants weapons from Israel, not vice versa. They will ship Israel whatever they are asked for to stay in Israel’s good graces. Without Iranian proxies, the tail doesn’t wag the dog anymore. Thank God for Donald Trump and that we dont have a feckless moron like Kamala as president.

The Palestinians have, unfortunately, let the ship sail. Their dream of statehood is over. That’s just a realistic practical conclusion. Perhaps one day they will have a federation type relationship with Israel like the U.S. has with Guam. The political will is gone. The IDF and Mossad saw to that right quick.

Now that Israel is safe and secure, I will ask you the question again - do you believe that rape and the slaughter of innocents is a proper form of resistance? Gazans will never come anywhere near an Israeli vagina again - they will be locked in their rubble cage until the world lets them leave to another country. They are now finally living in the open air prison they always dreamed of. Israelis have their heads screwed on correctly now. The question is for the west. Now that you spent so much energy supporting barbarism, are you prepared to support this when it’s aimed at you? Because the west doesn’t have its head screwed on right.

 

[dbonsaiw]

picks and chooses which evils are wrong and which are justified. Evil is evil.

Is the rape and slaughter of innocent people evil? Or is that “justifiable resistance”? How about hostage taking? Is it evil to fire missiles from civilian areas into civilian areas? No way on Gods green earth that Jesus views these things as “just and proper”.

Is it “evil” for a government to use its military to protect its civilians from radical Islamic attacks?

It’s easy to say “evil is evil” but let’s see you define what evil is and what it isn’t.

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

Actually, no. My grandfathers fought in the Pacific and against Germany, the nazis. Why do you think what hitler did was evil, but what palestine did was not? You're not arguing from a logical standpoint. Because hitler didn't stop at the holocaust? Because he went beyond murdering Jews? Hamas was justified because they only committed vile acts against Israel? Your rhetoric sounds dangerously close to antisemitic.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Actually, no. My grandfathers fought in the Pacific and against Germany, the nazis. Why do you think what hitler did was evil, but what palestine did was not? You're not arguing from a logical standpoint. Because hitler didn't stop at the holocaust? Because he went beyond murdering Jews? Hamas was justified because they only committed vile acts against Israel? Your rhetoric sounds dangerously close to antisemitic.

I think we totally lost the thread here. If anything, I am absolutely biased in favor of Israel. Actually not sure how that even got confused. And here I thought I’m being too pro-Israel. LOL.

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

Is the rape and slaughter of innocent people evil? Or is that “justifiable resistance”? How about hostage taking? Is it evil to fire missiles from civilian areas into civilian areas? No way on Gods green earth that Jesus views these things as “just and proper”.

Is it “evil” for a government to use its military to protect its civilians from radical Islamic attacks?

It’s easy to say “evil is evil” but let’s see you define what evil is and what it isn’t.

Justice can be skewed to appear as evil. We see it all the time. "Trump is racist!" "There's no hate like Christian love!" "Israel is slaughtering innocent civilians!"
But those who spout such rubbish usually can't provide evidence, or at least nothing substantial.
Yes, it can be hard to muddle through the fact and fiction. There is often a fine line between justice and injustice. Sometimes, innocent people are hurt during the pursuit of justice, and that is a tragic reality. I stand with God's chosen. If Israel were not God's chosen people, then they would not be hated by so many other nations. It is jealousy directed against the most favored sibling. There's no hate like brotherly love.
BTW, my previous comments were in reference to what terminal said.

 

[TerminalMoraine]

Don’t worry: history will remember your perversion of Judaic ideals to fit a hardline stance that justifies your murder of a people’s over decades.

Know what the difference between this crap and the colonists in North America is? We have the benefit of 400+ years of hindsight. It’s 2025. Time to do better, idiots.

You guys just showed up in an area where a slew of religions place great importance. By your reasoning, being gods “chosen people” entitles you to do literally anything.

That’s uh…. Not how *any* of this works. That’s not how god works. It’s not how a world of peoples coexist if they want the species to have a future.

Honestly, given how insane the world has gone, my only consolation comes from the fact that when, one day, you and your ilk (racists, sociopaths, and rapists) meet your “god”, they will laugh in your face for missing the whole point of life.

Just for the record: I’m not here to teach you grade school level history. Sorry. There’s literally a plethora of data available publicly if you cared to look at it but, who are we kidding? You won’t. I could list of dates and historical facts all day but, that’s a practice in futility as people like you don’t care about objective reality.

But, like I said: do you. Whatever gets you through the day. Haha. I’ve had my fun here.

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

Don’t worry: history will remember your perversion of Judaic ideals to fit a hardline stance that justifies your murder of a people’s over decades.

Know what the difference between this crap and the colonists in North America is? We have the benefit of 400+ years of hindsight. It’s 2025. Time to do better, idiots.

You guys just showed up in an area where a slew of religions place great importance. By your reasoning, being gods “chosen people” entitles you to do literally anything.

That’s uh…. Not how *any* of this works. That’s not how god works. It’s not how a world of peoples coexist if they want the species to have a future.

Honestly, given how insane the world has gone, my only consolation comes from the fact that when, one day, you and your ilk (racists, sociopaths, and rapists) meet your “god”, they will laugh in your face for missing the whole point of life.

Just for the record: I’m not here to teach you grade school level history. Sorry. There’s literally a plethora of data available publicly if you cared to look at it but, who are we kidding? You won’t. I could list of dates and historical facts all day but, that’s a practice in futility as people like you don’t care about objective reality.

But, like I said: do you. Whatever gets you through the day. Haha. I’ve had my fun here.

Just for the record you haven't taught anyone anything. All you've done is to make baseless claims of perceived injustices. Anyone can do that.

That said, I think there's potential for you and I to be, at the very least, on friendly terms. We may never be friends, but I don't know you, and you don't know me, so maybe we can seek out what we have in common, since we already know that we have opposing views on Israel and "occupations." I think if the world could come together in our commonalities, we would have so much more peace. In our households, our neighborhoods, our nation's, and across the globe. Why not start here, instead of throwing accusations back and forth against people we don't even know?

 

[TerminalMoraine]

Most everything I’ve said is based purely in historical fact. Do I enjoy some hyperbole and word play? Yeah. Sue me.

I’m not here to brag or put anyone down but, I grew up with a professor father specializing in the Middle East. Ergo I have rather enjoyed spending 40 years learning about the complexities of the whole region and the richness of culture. Unless you’re holding something equivalent to a masters in history and, just for fun, spent two decades specifically focusing upon the Cold War period , this ain’t a fair fight and, I don’t like punching down (unlike some countries/people).

Besides Israel’s rampant “we’re gonna do whatever the fuck we want because the US has our back” attitude , the USSR and US engaged in extensive proxy wars that really fisted an already bad situation straight in the ass.

That’s not even mentioning destabilizing latin America through a seemingly endless series of “regime changes” with one superpower or another pulling the strings. Oh, there was also that “unpleasantness” in Vietnam where the native people (largely peasant farmers) wreaked absolute havoc on the most powerful military in the world? 200,000,000+ lbs of bombs (more than WW1 and WW2 combined…) on the Ho Chi Minh trail and *still* couldn’t stop the Vietnamese. We saw how well that turned out. We also flattened the shit out of like 2/3rds of Cambodia and Laos just ‘cuz.

Like, I could actually sit here and type out a very thoughtful dissertation on the matter but, I don’t feel like wasting the rest of my evening and I don’t think you’re up to the task. I have a fresh joint rolled and I’m going to enjoy this seltzer I just opened.

Here’s some history that’s more your level (and one of my personal favorites!): Watch a marvelous cinematic gem called Rambo 3. It’s great. Rambo helps to train and fight alongside a plucky group of rebels called the Taliban fight off the evil USSR. It’s really good.

History is only subjective if you cherry pick to fit your narrative.

This was fun. I have enough friends, though. Thanks very much

 

[dbonsaiw]

Know what the difference between this crap and the colonists in North America is? We have the benefit of 400+ years of hindsight. It’s 2025. Time to do better, idiots.

Query-When were there no Jews in Israel? Are you trying to say that Jews came to Israel the way Europeans came to the US?
that’s just historically incorrect. Jews are indigenous to Israel and frankly never left. There has been a Jewish presence there for over 3,000 years. I don’t have a degree in history, but you aren’t punching down here. If you were told that Jews came to Israel for the first time in the 19th century, maybe your dad is an art professor.

the USSR and US engaged in extensive proxy wars that really fisted an already bad situation straight in the ass.

Thanks for the lesson in proxy wars. But my point was that Iran has no more proxies. The fear of proxy wars is gone because the proxies were unleashed and got cut down. But gazans are still in Gaza. The West Bank hasnt been annexed (yet), and those parts of Syria, Lebanon and Jordan that are part of biblical Israel have not been annexed either. In short, Israel doesn’t do “whatever it wants”.

And, btw, the U.S. isn’t occupied. “Occupation” requires sovereignty, not a fiddle and a sob story. Just because people live somewhere doesn’t make them sovereign.

Don’t worry: history will remember your perversion of Judaic ideals to fit a hardline stance that justifies your murder of a people’s over decades.

Is your dad a Judaic studies professor as well? On this topic I got you hands down. To be sure, Jewish ideals are based on the 613 precepts of the Torah. Over half of these precepts can only be fulfilled in the land of Israel. I guess you are unaware of the Judaic ideal expressed in the Talmud - ha-ba le-horgekha, hashkem le-horgo – if someone comes planning to kill you, you should hurry to kill him first.

Given that your dad is a professor of Middle East studies, he is surely aware that Arabs come from the Arabian peninsula, while Jews comes from Judea. He can tell you that the greatest colonizers in history were Arab Muslims. He can tell you that there was no Arab national Palestinian aspirations until 1967 when the Arabs finally learned they would never destroy Israel by military means alone. He can tell you that in the briefing for the peel report etc the Arabs wholeheartedly rejected the term “Palestinian” and claimed they were Syrian (until later claiming they were Jordanian).

And now what? Imagine for a second if on 10/8 the world didn’t light up in support of Hamas. Imagine the UN could muster the courage to mention Hamas in this war. But no, Gaza was essential for the destruction of Israel and now it is gone. 2.5 million people wasted everything they had to hurt Israel. And now they have nothing. In retrospect, do you still believe all that marching helped their cause? The lesson is simple - when an evil Islamist regime that is weak other than terrorism makes it an all or nothing game, they get nothing. The truth is that the world got used to Israel never doing anything it wants.

Have you fact checked my claim yet about Gaza claiming genocide for decades? And that their population has exploded by 1000x in that period? There was never a genocide in Gaza. People die in war, especially when they are used as human shields. Ask your dad.

 

[dbonsaiw]

You guys just showed up in an area where a slew of religions place great importance.

Run this by your dad (or try the internet):

I won’t bother with Biblical times and will just note some Jewish highlights in Israel after that:

200 - the Mishna is redacted in israel
351 - Jews revolt against gallus
358 - Hillel institutes the Jewish calendar
438 - eudocia allows Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount
450 - redaction of the Jerusalem talmud
638 - Umar allows Jews back into Jerusalem
750 - famous yeshiva in Tiveria founded
960 - rabbi Aaron’s Ben Asher dies in Jerusalem
1099-1121 - crusaders slaughter Jews in israel
1140 - rabbi Yehuda Halevi urges Spanish Jews to join their brethren Israel and does so himself
1160-1180 - Benjamin of tudela and others visit Israel during the second crusade and document the thriving Jewish communities they find
1210 - Jews from France join their brethren in Israel
1260 - yechiel of Paris establishes Talmudic academy of acre
1266 - Jews banned from visiting the cave of the patriarchs
1267 - Ramban reached Israel and establishes his synagogue (still standing today)
1441 - famine in Israel as testified by letters sent by Jews in Israel to European counterparts asking for help.
1474 - great synogogue destroyed by Arab mob (not Palis - they don’t exist for another 200 years)
1488 - Rabbi Avraham begins revival of Jerusalem
(1516 - Sultan Selim II conquers Israel and makes it part of Syria)
Late 1400s - printing of Jewish books in Jerusalem and safed
1500s - Jewish renaissance in safed, with explosion of Jewish population in israel
1563 - Joseph Nasinpurchases land from the sultan to form a Jewish city-state (plan basically fails)
1648 - chemnilsky massacres of Jews claims 100s of thousands of Jewish lives in Ukraine, leading to Jews moving to israel
1714 - Dutch researcher Adrianne Reland published an account of his visit to Israel, and noted the existence of significant Jewish population centers throughout the country, particularly Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias, Hebron and Gaza.

Let me know how much more detail and how much further you want me to go. If your dad doesn’t know this, maybe he shouldn’t be teaching Middle East studies. Stick to teaching fiction.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Professor in Middle East studies, huh? Surely he is aware of these facts and can attest that there is no such thing as an Palestinian people (as Reagan said, facts are stubborn things):

In February 1919 an Arab Delegation to the Versailles Peace Conference submitted a formal petition urging that rather than be recognized as an independent state, Palestine should be deemed part of and merged into Syria. The petition said, “We consider Palestine as part of Arabic Syria as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economical and geographic bonds . . . In view of the above we desire that our distinct Southern Syria or Palestine should not be separated from the Independent Arabic Syrian Government.”

The Arab legal argument that there was no such political entity as “Palestine” continued after the League of Nations awarded the Palestine Mandate to Britain in 1922. For example, in 1925 Jamal Effendi-Husseini, a prominent Palestinian Arab, challenged a decision of British High Commissioner Sir Herbert Samuel allowing local postage stamps to bear an inscription in Hebrew identifying the country as “Palestine E.I.” (Palestine Eretz Israel).

Husseini’s lawyer, Auni Bey Abdul Hadi, argued to the court that “Palestine” was “not an Arab word.” Auni Bey insisted the correct name of the country was “Southern Syria.” “Palestine,” he argued, had no separate existence and was in fact part of Syria.

Following the Hebron Massacre in late August 1929, the British Government convened an inquiry commission under the leadership of Sir Walter Shaw. A witness for the Arab side, Saleem Farah, testified under oath on November 27, 1929 that prior to World War I, Palestine was never regarded as a separate political entity.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al Husseini, also testified before the Shaw Commission. The Mufti POS conceded in his testimony that the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine granted political rights in Palestine to the Jews, but not to the Arabs.

Many other prominent Arabs also argued Palestine should have been regarded as part of Syria. George Antonius, author of the book “The Arab Awakening,” testified before the Palestine Royal Commission (the Peel Commission) on January 18, 1937 in Jerusalem. Antonius spent a considerable portion of his testimony arguing Palestine had always been part of Syria. He noted “Palestine has always been an integral part of Syria and that what was common to Syria was common to Palestine.”

Following the Israeli War of Independence, the Palestinians declared their allegiance to King Abdullah I of Jordan at the Jericho Conference in December 1950. Abdullah invoked the resolutions adopted at the conference as the legal basis for Jordan’s annexation of the West Bank.

You have no facts on your side. All you have is name calling and a feckless, rudderless far left that applauds lies and deceit. Jordan is Palestine.