Timing Japanese Maple Thread Graft

[jimlau]

At what point is a branch on a JM ready to be used as a feeder for a thread graft? Is it when you can see the next generation buds at each leaf node?

The branches are about 3 weeks old and about 18" long with about 6 leaf pairs.

The tree is a large 1 {trunk 3-4", height ~ 2 feet} in a deep training pot.

Thanks.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I think the issue is more of timing for the thread graft. I've done these in early spring before the buds even swell, so the branches are from the previous year. It's likely too late for thread grafts, so whether you can use the young branches appears irrelevant.

 

[jimlau]

I think the issue is more of timing for the thread graft. I've done these in early spring before the buds even swell, so the branches are from the previous year. It's likely too late for thread grafts, so whether you can use the young branches appears irrelevant.

Why is it too late? Buds are likely not ready? There's not enough time for the feeder to thicken? Thanks.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Best time for thread grafting deciduous is before the buds swell in late winter. After the buds swell you'll need a much larger hole to pass the stem through and obviously difficult to thread stem with leaves through a hole. In theory you could defoliate carefully and thread graft but that's all extra work.

 

[jimlau]

Best time for thread grafting deciduous is before the buds swell in late winter. After the buds swell you'll need a much larger hole to pass the stem through and obviously difficult to thread stem with leaves through a hole. In theory you could defoliate carefully and thread graft but that's all extra work.

Yes, I was going to remove the leaves so the hole is barely wider than the branch. Buds are not swollen, but I'm not sure if they are far enough developed so defoliation would lead to them swell and bud.

 

[mook1178]

What is the hurry to do it now instead of when the tree is just waking up from dormancy?

 

[leatherback]

In general, even very young herbacuous branches will budd out if healthy, so I would not have too big a concern there. I am concerned about the donor getting damaged in the process, but who knows.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Yes, I was going to remove the leaves so the hole is barely wider than the branch. Buds are not swollen, but I'm not sure if they are far enough developed so defoliation would lead to them swell and bud.

Hi Jimlau,
So I might be going against other members concerns here and agree with you that thread grafts can be done late Spring. Sure the grafts performed in early Spring are safer but here’s my reasoning too.

So a year or two back I tried to wire late Spring or Summer growth. This was to have them ready for the next Spring but I wasn’t very good at the wiring or confident in bending the new growth around ready with wire etc. Then I came up with a plan along your question line of the thread. Why couldn’t I bend the soft/semi-hard branch of ‘current’ Spring growth to my drill site, defoliate the stem and poke through. After a practise bend of two to prove it was possible, I performed the thread graft. A couple of weeks later ( the Japanese Maple) Katsura started pushing growth all along the stem. With much excitement I rubbed off the buds on the mother tree side, which forced the new growth to only grow on the side wanted. Within a couple of months of Summer growth the graft was able to be severed, although a way less risky move should have been to leave it for the entire season. I can take a photo of mine if you wish.

I find Beech and Hornbeam still flexible in the Spring pre-leaf with all but the terminal bud removed has been very successful too.

I hope that helps,
Charles

 

[Dav4]

Be sure your stock is growing vigorously... the one time I used a defoliated whip to create a thread graft, it didn't push new leaves that year and was dead by next spring. The grafts I create during the dormant season almost universally grow and are successful.

 

[jimlau]

Thanks for the replies. Should I defoliate both sides of the feeder, meaning the ones not only on the end side but also the pre-hole side?

 

[Dav4]

Thanks for the replies. Should I defoliate both sides of the feeder, meaning the ones not only on the end side but also the pre-hole side?

I would. Otherwise, the tree might abandon the defoliated portion of the whip in favor of the portion of the branch still actively growing.

 

[River's Edge]

The branches are about 3 weeks old and about 18" long with about 6 leaf pairs

As you mention existing leaf pairs that may throw off the reader. Your question is about the appropriate timing! Typically threading the branch is most effective with smaller buds and more flexible tips. This also enables a smaller hole for the thread graft. Combine this with the beginning of the growing season for best results. Note: you can remove larger buds and early leaf pairs from a section of the branch to ease the insertion when dealing with thicker trunks or branches. ( just not the growing tips)
For some species I prefer to wire the branch into place during the previous growing season as it extends. This makes for easier thread approach at the desired angle and also less disruption to the thread graft during the process. Bthe asically the branch is in place for the beginning of the next growing season, allowing for the insertion and the full growing season for the hole to close and the branch to settle in. This thread graft would be typically be performed in March prior to to bud swell. At least in my location.
Here is a picture to illustrate the approach suggested above.

 

[jimlau]

Should I use cut paste, or will that keep the branch and trunk from conecting?

 

[dbonsaiw]

Combine this with the beginning of the growing season for best results.

I prefer to wire the branch into place during the previous growing season as it extends.

I'm still in favor of this approach. It's the most effective and practical method. I don't believe you are necessarily speeding anything up by performing the graft now as it may not take before winter and then you need to care for it all winter and leave it on next season in any event. I only did a few thread grafts this season on a bloodgood at the end of winter before buds swelled. The branches have extended and swelled a lot. No question I can cut them in the fall. What's sure is sure.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
Yep, use cut paste as it seals the wound from any possible infection. I don't agree with the previous message as you are using the rest of the growing season to complete job. Yes, it might not be ready, but so what.
Obviously the best time to do thread grafts is in the Spring before leaves start moving. But I am confident it works both ways.
Charles

 

[Wixem]

As you mention existing leaf pairs that may throw off the reader. Your question is about the appropriate timing! Typically threading the branch is most effective with smaller buds and more flexible tips. This also enables a smaller hole for the thread graft. Combine this with the beginning of the growing season for best results. Note: you can remove larger buds and early leaf pairs from a section of the branch to ease the insertion when dealing with thicker trunks or branches. ( just not the growing tips)
For some species I prefer to wire the branch into place during the previous growing season as it extends. This makes for easier thread approach at the desired angle and also less disruption to the thread graft during the process. Bthe asically the branch is in place for the beginning of the next growing season, allowing for the insertion and the full growing season for the hole to close and the branch to settle in. This thread graft would be typically be performed in March prior to to bud swell. At least in my location.
Here is a picture to illustrate the approach suggested above.View attachment 490283

I'm curious on the timing of cutting the donor branch at the thread grafting entry point. I thread grafted a Japanese maple in March this year, and the exit branch is now thicker than the entrance which makes me think the graft has a good chance of being successful. I would like to cut the branch this fall but would obviously wait until next year if it increases my odds of a successful grade e... What do you think? Do you always or usually make the cut in the fall of the same year?

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Great job, nice placement of that first bud set. I'd leave it connected until the branch is larger, maybe after the spring push

 

[Dav4]

I'm curious on the timing of cutting the donor branch at the thread grafting entry point. I thread grafted a Japanese maple in March this year, and the exit branch is now thicker than the entrance which makes me think the graft has a good chance of being successful. I would like to cut the branch this fall but would obviously wait until next year if it increases my odds of a successful grade e... What do you think? Do you always or usually make the cut in the fall of the same year?

The thickening is a good sign, but I agree with @Hack Yeah! that it might be better to leave the graft until next spring. Ideally, you'll wean the graft by scraping away maybe 1/3 of the bark and cambium on the donor side of the graft every few weeks until you've girdled the branch. Best to wait until the spring flush has hardened to do this.

 

[Wixem]

Awesome advice @Hack Yeah! and @Dav4 - thanks! I'd heard the rule of thumb to wait until the branch's exiting side is twice as large as its entering side, and it's really not quite there yet. I suppose it's safer to leave the graft attached through winter, and it makes a lot of sense to cut it after the spring growth has hardened (good point!). I was planning to make 3 small cuts over time to wean it off...I appreciate the feedback and encouragement guys, thanks again.

 

[River's Edge]

I'm curious on the timing of cutting the donor branch at the thread grafting entry point. I thread grafted a Japanese maple in March this year, and the exit branch is now thicker than the entrance which makes me think the graft has a good chance of being successful. I would like to cut the branch this fall but would obviously wait until next year if it increases my odds of a successful grade e... What do you think? Do you always or usually make the cut in the fall of the same year?

No there is no set timing for separation. I usually wait until I am very satisfied with an assured outcome. I also have taken the separation in stages by reducing the entry side to increase reliance on the graft before complete separation. Definitely no need to rush the process. Starting over is a much longer wait time.