The Bonsai Soil Argument

[Attmos]

I've just been made aware of the fact that potting soil and highly organic mixes are still used by some over non-organic mixes (volcanic) that support water retention and nutrient retention provided by fertilizers.

This fact, I think, needs to be made more apparent. Horticultural success doesn't seem to follow that you HAVE to use Akadama/Volcanic substrate... yet, that seems to be what most will suggest. On top of that, substitutes like "product #8822" and zeolite, are dismissed as sub-par substrates people only use for low quality trees.

I'm gonna reignite this argument I'm told has been dormant for too long, or try anyway, lol. Seems like people have fallen into habits... habits that aren't always the best option... strictly because it's the most accepted and promoted way of doing things.

I apologize in advance for any offense.

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

I've just been made aware of the fact that potting soil and highly organic mixes are still used by some over non-organic mixes (volcanic) that support water retention and nutrient retention provided by fertilizers.

This fact, I think, needs to be made more apparent. Horticultural success doesn't seem to follow that you HAVE to use Akadama/Volcanic substrate... yet, that seems to be what most will suggest. On top of that, substitutes like "product #8822" and zeolite, are dismissed as sub-par substrates people only use for low quality trees.

I'm gonna reignite this argument I'm told has been dormant for too long, or try anyway, lol. Seems like people have fallen into habits... habits that aren't always the best option... strictly because it's the most accepted and promoted way of doing things.

I apologize in advance for any offense.

Soil wars are over, and very few want back in.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

 

[Attmos]

Soil wars are over, and very few want back in.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

I think that's a damn shame.

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

I think that's a damn shame.

There's all kinds of threads on them. You could search and be entertained for hours. Parting shot...Show me a prize winning bonsai tree in garden soil.

 

[Attmos]

There's all kinds of threads on them. You could search and be entertained for hours. Parting shot...Show me a prize winning bonsai tree in garden soil.

I know. But one has to search for old threads. It's not an easy thing to do if you haven't been part of the community long because there's no real pattern of word usage. People name their post whatever they want, which makes finding information kind of difficult. But that isn't the point.

I'd bet that there are some prize winning bonsai out there that were grown in potting soil, or even just top soil.

I mean, all of those ancient Imperial Bonsai weren't grown in Akadama.

 

[Attmos]

There's all kinds of threads on them. You could search and be entertained for hours. Parting shot...Show me a prize winning bonsai tree in garden soil.

Not to mention that different environmental conditions demand different qualities in a soil.

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

I know. But one has to search for old threads. It's not an easy thing to do if you haven't been part of the community long because there's no real pattern of word usage. People name their post whatever they want, which makes finding information kind of difficult. But that isn't the point.

I'd bet that there are some prize winning bonsai out there that were grown in potting soil, or even just top soil.

I mean, all of those ancient Imperial Bonsai weren't grown in Akadama.

This should keep ya busy. I just use the word "soil" and click in titles only.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/soil-mix.20987/
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/soil-wars-episode-iv.57940/
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/soil-wars-turface.13307/

 

[Wulfskaar]

I'll skip the arguments over different bonsai soils and focus on garden soil vs bonsai soil.

None of my larger trees are in garden soil, but I have been growing a shit-ton of seeds over the last 5 years in all types of soil (and all types of trees). As for the garden soil, I have only used Fox Farms Ocean Forest soil, because we have a lot of it. Here are my experiences with garden soil.

*It depends on the species and climate.
*I've planted several types of oak acorns. They all seem to do fine in garden soil.
*Some species germinate and immediately die. Others do just fine.
*It becomes difficult for me NOT to overwater because it takes so long to dry.
*I've planted the same species of oak in garden soil, bonsai soil, and TinyRoots deciduous bonsai soil, all at the same time. After 3-4 years, I see no difference in their growth.

Lessons learned:
*Garden soil holds water for a long time, testing my watering discipline.
*Some species don't like being in garden soil.
*Garden soil is much cheaper.
*In my climate, my younger trees seem to all really love the TinyRoots soil. I think everything I've ever planted in it is doing great, although I've never tried it with young conifers.
*For trees that can handle garden soil, it's probably great for letting trees grow out (like in a nursery) for much cheaper, including having to water less.

 

[Attmos]

This should keep ya busy. I just use the word "soil" and click in titles only.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/soil-mix.20987/
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/soil-wars-episode-iv.57940/
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/soil-wars-turface.13307/

Thank you. I guess I just need to learn how to use the search option.

Never the less...

I'll skip the arguments over different bonsai soils and focus on garden soil vs bonsai soil.

None of my larger trees are in garden soil, but I have been growing a shit-ton of seeds over the last 5 years in all types of soil (and all types of trees). As for the garden soil, I have only used Fox Farms Ocean Forest soil, because we have a lot of it. Here are my experiences with garden soil.

*It depends on the species and climate.
*I've planted several types of oak acorns. They all seem to do fine in garden soil.
*Some species germinate and immediately die. Others do just fine.
*It becomes difficult for me NOT to overwater because it takes so long to dry.
*I've planted the same species of oak in garden soil, bonsai soil, and TinyRoots deciduous bonsai soil, all at the same time. After 3-4 years, I see no difference in their growth.

Lessons learned:
*Garden soil holds water for a long time, testing my watering discipline.
*Some species don't like being in garden soil.
*Garden soil is much cheaper.
*In my climate, my younger trees seem to all really love the TinyRoots soil. I think everything I've ever planted in it is doing great, although I've never tried it with young conifers.
*For trees that can handle garden soil, it's probably great for letting trees grow out (like in a nursery) for much cheaper, including having to water less.

Yeah I suppose the Title is a bit too provocative. lol
Can't change it now..

But, what you just described is exactly the kind of information I was looking for, and what I think a lot of other newbies need to hear.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Yeah, the search function can be tricky. Plus, if you respond to a comment, the person may or may not even still be around.

As for bonsai soils themselves, there are so many examples of people using different mixes with similar results. Rather than worrying too much about what particles make up the soil, think about water retention and soil pH instead. Those 2 things might be the more important things to consider when choosing a soil. Keep in mind, I'm only 5 years into this hobby, so I can only offer limited actual experience.

 

[Attmos]

Yeah, the search function can be tricky. Plus, if you respond to a comment, the person may or may not even still be around.

As for bonsai soils themselves, there are so many examples of people using different mixes with similar results. Rather than worrying too much about what particles make up the soil, think about water retention and soil pH instead. Those 2 things might be the more important things to consider when choosing a soil. Keep in mind, I'm only 5 years into this hobby, so I can only offer limited actual experience.

Don't get me wrong... the reason I bring it up has a lot to do with the older posts I have read. I do read them. And I enjoy reading them. I just also like debate and new ideas (or old) being brought to attention.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Don't get me wrong... the reason I bring it up has a lot to do with the older posts I have read. I do read them. And I enjoy reading them. I just also like debate and new ideas (or old) being brought to attention.

Me too. I like to ask questions, which sometimes annoys people.

 

[BrianBay9]

Thank you. I guess I just need to learn how to use the search option.

It works better to use Google search and include "bonsainut" as a term. "bonsai soil bonsainut"

 

[rockm]

It is pretty much settled that non organic soils are superior. I started bonsai a long time ago and tried the organic route. And saw others doing the same. I was skeptical of soils with little to no organic material. I changed my mind.

Where trees just kind of slogged along with organic heavy soil I saw up close and in person the changes in growth and quality of growth in many many species.

I’d like to compare the “never say die potting soil” advocates’ trees alongside a few that are in inorganic.

Not saying organic soils can’t work. Just saying for the most part over time inorganic soils work better. Organic ingredients can be added to inorganic mixes but they shouldn’t be the major ingredient.

I refuse to go back to the old days. Old ideas are not necessarily better. They’re just old. Some are old and wrong. Would you follow John Naka’s soil recipe in Bonsai Techniques? You’d be foolish to since is is almost 69 years old and centered around S California climate. Many people back in the day did though. Wasn’t great if you lived east of the Mississippi.

 

[luvinthemountains]

It works better to use Google search and include "bonsainut" as a term. "bonsai soil bonsainut"

Great point. Try this next time - google "bonsai soil site:bonsainut.com" and see if you get even better results. </OT>

 

[Dav4]

The only tree I've ever grown successfully in a mix containing potting soil... in a bonsai pot... was a bald cypress- you know, the tree that grows well even with its pot submerged in water for months on end. I've successfully grown lots of maples in an organic heavy mix- usually bark mulch instead of potting soil for the organics- but they were being grown in tall nursery cans. Once they're getting moved into flatter wider containers, the percentage of organics in the mix diminishes greatly or disappears entirely. And yes, I've found that a 100% inorganic mix containing akadama tends to give the best results .

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

https://www.reddit.com/r/indianajones/comments/1ez1eco/my_take_on_the_indy_eating_popcorn_gif_lol

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Glaucus]

Plants need both oxygen and water. And when using very shallow, small pots, you need to water once or twice a day to give them the water they need. And that requires a substrate that offers more oxygen/air than soil does.

There is still some room for debate in my mind for bonsai in way deeper pots or bonsai in climates with different summers from Japan. But generally for plants in shallow true bonsai pots with a rainy season in summer, for sure the substrate approach, which is kinda a form of hydroponics, is required. If you have normal non-bonsai plants of the same or similar species as container plants on your patio, you can use soil or peat-based potting mix.

 

[Shibui]

Most bonsai travellers in China comment that the public Penjing display trees mostly seem to be planted in garden soil - or at very least, a very fine particle potting soil. Maybe all those Chinese Penjing growers are wrong and their trees are actually all dead?

Not saying organic soils can’t work. Just saying for the most part over time inorganic soils work better.

Could well be true but it may also depend on local climate. Definitely depends on watering regime.

Organic ingredients can be added to inorganic mixes but they shouldn’t be the major ingredient.

Definitely an opinion rather than fact. I'm happy to dispute that statement because I seem to be growing successfully in 70% pine bark potting mix for more than 40 years now. I also believe that many of the major bonsai retailers use organic potting soils?

I’d like to compare the “never say die potting soil” advocates’ trees alongside a few that are in inorganic.

I'm ready to put up some trees grown in 70% pine bark potting soil.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

A good soil is a soil that works.
I've had a lot of soils work for me. Organic requires dunking sometimes but it does produce superior root structure in seedlings for me.