Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
An amazing black pine. The care required to develop this tree was impressive. Almost as impressive as the care required to maintain it
An amazing black pine. The care required to develop this tree was impressive. Almost as impressive as the care required to maintain it
I agree, it is an amazing little tree. To me, it is a symbol of perfection.
Yes, it is a cookie cutter tree, but as I said on another forum, there is nothing wrong with cookie-cutter, as long as it is perfectly executed. Cookie cutter just means that it is a well tested design that has worked for hundreds of years. This design works, and will always work, no matter how many times it is copied.....
Now, as to the question...Is this Art? ...
No matter how many times Monet's "La Promenade" is copied, none of the copies are art, even if they are perfectly executed
(1) „Cookie Cutter“ Bonsai
The term cookie cutter is used sometimes to denote a kind of bonsai style which makes all trees look alike. Some think that it means a common form which is created without skill. But cookie cutter does not necessarily imply a lack of skill. Alan Walker suggests to use the expressions “(s)lavish following of the rules, a carbon copy of one’s instructor’s trees, lacking originality”.
The term seems to mean what was called neo classical style in a previous chapter. A style which tries to repeat the classical one, but not with the same skill level. An artist applies what he has learned as being the classical rules to each and every tree he designs. He just goes through the motions without giving it a second thought. The outcome are cliché trees, which somehow all look alike. It could also simply mean that the trees of a certain artist somehow all look alike. This is, of course, a phenomenon in all art forms. Indeed, one can browse through a magazine or walk through an exhibit and spot some trees which definitely come from one person. Cookie cutter? Well, most would love to have this cookie cutter. It simply happens that in designing a tree there are many decisions to be made at various points. While there usually are many options, a specific artist will tend to choose a similar option for a certain decision every time. The result is the “handwriting” of the artist which can be subtle or very strong. One can argue whether this is good or bad, whether one should be able to see the hand of man or not. But to use the term “cookie cutter” in this context is hardly appropriate.
Does one do cookie cutter bonsai when all the trees somehow look alike in a collection? Not necessarily. The designer may well be on a high level of artistry with a lot of creativity. He might apply his skill to all trees the same way and such they all show the touch of an artist. This is not bad at all. It happens normally in arts. How else is it possible to go thorough a museum and be able to say „this is a Picasso“ from far away. Is it derogatory to say „this is a Kimura tree“, without really knowing who did it. Maybe the master himself or some of his scholars.
This only starts to become a problem when there are only repetitions, only copies of copies after a while.
What is a good representation of classical bonsai for most, may well be a cliché bonsai for some. It all depends on the point of view. It depends on the sum of experiences. Someone who has spent decades working with one style may well be fed up with it as he becomes aware that all he does is only repetitions. (emphasis mine-cj)
An outstanding tree may be a cliché and an icon at the same time. What one sees as cliché then others are seeing possibly as a symbol, as an icon. If that icon is still a “loaded” one in their minds, then they will respond to it because for them it is carrying an aura of great intensity. The creator himself may at the same time admit that it is just a cliché that he has become tired of. It is a bit like in some old marriages. While the world may view a man as having great charisma and being a wonderful sport, the lady knows better after so many years and sees him in a different light. But its still the same man, only viewed with different eyes.
Ernie Kuo takes the term and uses it in an ironical way for the images of trees that he stores in his head. The old trees in nature should be inspirations for our bonsai. If they are truly inspirational they will form an indelible image in our mind. These become part of a cookie cutter catalog for our bonsai.
The term cookie cutter is usually meant in a derogative way. It may be worthwhile to pause for a moment and realize that this is a typical western notion. We do not call replicated work art and originality is the keynote of our art. In Japan just as in the rest of Asia in general repetition is highly valued. The best copy is the best piece of art there. The very word bonsai, holds a certain meaning – accepting replication, denoting the symbolic quality of art (in the Asian sense) .
The most cited „cookie cutter“ is the pine tree cliché. In Japanese art and culture the pine has a special place and significance. The ideal shape of a pine tree is a highly regarded icon. The ideal bonsai has the shape of a pine tree. In Japanese culture, art, and even bonsai, pine is the dominant icon . This lead to the ideal formal upright and informal upright pine tree form, which is well known. The classical rules of bonsai as they are (mis)understood lead more or less to the shape of a pine tree if applied to any material. The designer must have some image in his mind when he approaches his material. Most bonsai enthusiasts have the image of the ideal pine in their head. Thus it is not surprising that in the majority of cases the result of bonsai styling resembles a pine form.
It is interesting to note that the pine tree as the ultimate bonsai icon is a relatively new development. At the end of the 19th century, after the Meiji Restoration, the now classic pine shape became predominant. Before, the dominant trees were flowering trees in much decorated porcelain pots. Partly as a nationalistic response to Western influences tastes in arts in general changed. Also pot styles changed to the pastel tones and shapes which we call “classical” today.
Sometimes a cookie cutter tree is referred to as a bonsai that does not look like a real tree. Really a bonsai does not necessarily have to look like a real tree. It is an icon of a real tree. At least this is true in the classical style which aims for the ideal tree vs. the naturalistic style which aims for the natural tree. A bonsai should have the “essence” of a real tree, it is “distilled nature”, as Jim Lewis said. Now, if a bonsai looks somehow good, but just happens to be sterile, not to breath this essence of nature, then it misses the most important part of art, and can rightfully be called cookie cutter bonsai. It may well be like so many of the models in fashion magazines who are beautiful, but somehow sterile, not really sexy at all and somehow all look the same.
Hi.
Will i have a question about your principles on art. If two or three artists paint the same bowl of fruit from the same angle at the same time, does this mean two of those paintings are not art, as they are the same as the others? (They were all done by artists).
If an artist paints a copy of another painting surely its is still art as an artist has painted it.
The same as each cooky cutter bonsai has been sculpted by an artist and must be considered art, as none will be excactly the same.
If every tree had to be different to be considered a good quality piece of art, then there would of been no point in the principle styles created by the japanese.
Simon
If three great artists paint the same sunset, you will likely have three great pieces of art. Not because they are called artists, but because they are artists, with the talent and training to make great art.
QUOTE]
Yes Chris you are right, likely! Because, like in any art form, not all the work a great artist makes are masterworks! Or even close to just being good! It is a false assumption, and a costly one, to believe that all great artist create good art, all the time and every time! Most of the times, even they, just fall back to the same thing that worked before, and payed for the bills!
Hans van Meer.
Hi Simon, yes, just as there are many artistic representations of Japanese Black Pines that are not helmeted.If two or three artists paint the same bowl of fruit from the same angle at the same time, does this mean two of those paintings are not art, as they are the same as the others? (They were all done by artists).
Could you name me just one example of a world renowned piece of art that is a direct copy of another?If an artist paints a copy of another painting surely its is still art as an artist has painted it.
Every tree is different, but there are some that are original.....amd yes, originality exists in the styles as well.If every tree had to be different to be considered a good quality piece of art, then there would of been no point in the principle styles created by the japanese.
not all the work a great artist makes are masterworks! Or even close to just being good!
The Pine posted is a killer little tree!!! I would be willing to bet that noone who has posted to this yet can make a tree like that.
The Pine posted is a killer little tree!!! I would be willing to bet that noone who has posted to this yet can make a tree like that. Some can write about it, and make generalized statements, and even voice opinions on what they think is art or not art, but at the end of the day this tree is better than most will EVER own in bonsai. It takes a huge amount of skill, training and knowledge to get a tree to this point. No one in America can grow a tree like this....yet!
I am with Greg on this one, this tree is amazing!
Jason
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I can't build a power plant either, but I know better than to stick my finger in the socket.
Will
No, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the discussion, or my statement that the tree is basically a textbook example of a cookie cutter tree, as most define such. The fact if participants in the discussion can create such a tree is irrelevant.On the contrary, it has everything to do with the discussion.
One may not agree that the tree works or is great, but at least give it the respect it deserves.
Those that can, do.
Those that can't, write about it.
Hi.
Will i have a question about your principles on art. If two or three artists paint the same bowl of fruit from the same angle at the same time, does this mean two of those paintings are not art, as they are the same as the others? (They were all done by artists).
If an artist paints a copy of another painting surely its is still art as an artist has painted it.
The same as each Cookie cutter bonsai has been sculpted by an artist and must be considered art, as none will be excactly the same.
If every tree had to be different to be considered a good quality piece of art, then there would of been no point in the principle styles created by the Japanese.