JBP Needles drying out? Concerned.

[Vance Wood]

I know you know this, Vance, but I feel it's important to state that if your temperate trees have been consistently covered by snow, they will not have been harmed by the extremely cold temps your area has been subjected to throughout the winter. The bigger concern I would have for your snow bound trees would be damage to branches due to settling snow and the gnawing of hungry rodents. I certainly hope they've weathered this winter without significant injury.

There is that but we have had temperatures near -20* for extended times and I am not so sure how well a lot of my trees were covered in. The winter came hard, fast and early.

 

[Paradox]

. Honestly, based on the description you gave for your typical winter, I actually wonder why you keep them inside at all.

Because I have had some trees die being outside all winter, while others of the same species survived in the garage. There are a couple I can leave out and have done with no problems in a normal winter. Our typical winter is unpredictable with a constant freeze/thaw; freeze/thaw etc etc. We don't get enough snow normally to bury them under and keep them frozen, but we do get freezing temperatures for a few days, then it thaws for a few days and we get a lot of wind.

I feel it is safest to keep them inside, where they are protected from the wind, wont freeze but stay cold enough for dormancy. It is also less work to move them into the garage then try to bury them against the house with leaves or mulch or whatever, plus it is more secure.

Dormancy does not require frozen roots and trees in nature do not have their roots frozen in most temperate areas, because the roots are too deep to freeze. In most areas, the soil is not frozen more than 6 inches down. There are exceptions to this of course.

 

[Dav4]

I guess you have to do what works, but I find that the more complicated your winter setup is, there can be proportionally more work and more problems. The KISS axiom really applies here. I can't explain why you lost the trees you did when they were over wintered outside...too many factors may have played a role like soil, mulch, wind, etc,. I do know that I have successfully over wintered JBP, Japanese maples, tridents, junipers, etc., all outside without the benefit of snow cover multiple winters when the temps fell below zero F. Well mulched pots out of the sun, burlap wind break and watered in once....I never lost a tree. Well, I lost a few trees that were over protected and kept in a walk out from my basement...they were girdled by mice.

 

[Paradox]

Keeping it simple is kind of my point as well.

For me, its just much simpler to put some shelves in the garage (I use shelves that I use as a bench normally), water every week or two, monitor temps (easy to do when I walk past them literally twice a day) and open the door for a few hours when needed. It costs me nothing to do this, I have everything on hand and takes less than a day to set up.

If I kept them out side, I would have to buy burlap every year to make a wind break and buy mulch every year because I have no place to store it when its not needed and would have to throw it out every spring. It would take more than a day (probably two) to accomplish this set up.

Fortunately there is more than one way to this.

And yes, Ive kept scots pine, mugo pine, spruce and san jose junis outside with no protection and all lived.

 

[Vance Wood]

Keeping it simple is kind of my point as well.

For me, its just much simpler to put some shelves in the garage (I use shelves that I use as a bench normally), water every week or two, monitor temps (easy to do when I walk past them literally twice a day) and open the door for a few hours when needed. It costs me nothing to do this, I have everything on hand and takes less than a day to set up.

If I kept them out side, I would have to buy burlap every year to make a wind break and buy mulch every year because I have no place to store it when its not needed and would have to throw it out every spring. It would take more than a day (probably two) to accomplish this set up.

Fortunately there is more than one way to this.

And yes, Ive kept scots pine, mugo pine, spruce and san jose junis outside with no protection and all lived.

I would love to see any of your Mugo pictures if you still have any survivors, and the spruce as well. I know a lot of people have trouble with the Mugo and I am trying to figure out why.

 

[Bonsai_Bubba]

I had a black pine do the exact same thing this year. I had moved it from Texas to Pennsylvania and, evidently it did not like the colder winter. Somehow a juniper and trident maple had no problems, but the JBP just did not make it. Feel really bad about killing a tree, but oh well, onwards and upwards. Might have been my watering schedule, might have been the extreme weather in PA this year. I guess there's nothing to do for it now.

 

[Vance Wood]

I had a black pine do the exact same thing this year. I had moved it from Texas to Pennsylvania and, evidently it did not like the colder winter. Somehow a juniper and trident maple had no problems, but the JBP just did not make it. Feel really bad about killing a tree, but oh well, onwards and upwards. Might have been my watering schedule, might have been the extreme weather in PA this year. I guess there's nothing to do for it now.

Many years ago I worked for Franks Nursery. They used to sell JBP but when they discovered Austrian Black Pine they discontinued JBP. They had a terrible return record on the tree due to winter death. I have personally found that JBP do not like the hard winters we can have at times here in Michigan. I suspect there is going to be a lot of dead trees after this one is over, and most of the JBP's I am afraid.

 

[Bonsai_Bubba]

Many years ago I worked for Franks Nursery. They used to sell JBP but when they discovered Austrian Black Pine they discontinued JBP. They had a terrible return record on the tree due to winter death. I have personally found that JBP do not like the hard winters we can have at times here in Michigan. I suspect there is going to be a lot of dead trees after this one is over, and most of the JBP's I am afraid.

Thanks Vance, makes me feel a bit better that I'm not alone in any case. For whatever reason, I thought the trident maple would be the one to bite the dust. I guess I pampered it a fair bit more though.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks Vance, makes me feel a bit better that I'm not alone in any case. For whatever reason, I thought the trident maple would be the one to bite the dust. I guess I pampered it a fair bit more though.

I have found Tridents a bit too fussy for my liking so I no longer grow them. I have found out that if the tree is not root bound or in a pot where the roots are in contact with the bonsai pot they will do OK with a modicum of shelter. However if the roots come into contact with the walls of a ceramic pot they turn to snot and the tree dies. The only way to keep them in our climate is to use a shed (another reason I don't) and take them out of their pots and mulch the soil balls.

 

[Paradox]

I would love to see any of your Mugo pictures if you still have any survivors, and the spruce as well. I know a lot of people have trouble with the Mugo and I am trying to figure out why.

You really want to see my crappy trees..........They really arent worth posting bonsai-wise.

 

[Nybonsai12]

You really want to see my crappy trees..........They really arent worth posting bonsai-wise.

Come on. everything is worth posting.

As to JBP i have some seedlings right now that don't look too hot and I'm not thinking they will survive by spring. The JWP seedlings and red pine seedlings look fine though. They were all potted at the same time in the same mix. They are outside under my benches covered in snow on and off. I also have a pre-bonsai JBP in it's nursery can in the ground. I'm curious to see how they will all do as I killed a JBP shortly after last years winter. I have other pines as well and all remain outside year round and under mulch behind burlap for the winters.

 

[Vance Wood]

You really want to see my crappy trees..........They really arent worth posting bonsai-wise.

I would very much like to see your trees. I realize you have not been doing bonsai very long but I may be able to offer you some advise. If you like I think you can send them to me in an email. Let me know and I will send you the link.

 

[junmilo]

Sorry for the late reply all. Thank you all for the comments. I work for the largest airline here in Canada, been very busy.

I will post photos when I get home tonight.

Sincerely,

Jun

 

[Don Blackmond]

I have found Tridents a bit too fussy for my liking so I no longer grow them. I have found out that if the tree is not root bound or in a pot where the roots are in contact with the bonsai pot they will do OK with a modicum of shelter. However if the roots come into contact with the walls of a ceramic pot they turn to snot and the tree dies. The only way to keep them in our climate is to use a shed (another reason I don't) and take them out of their pots and mulch the soil balls.

I live in Michigan too, but on the other side of the State from you. I don't have any problems keeping tridents. I have them in my garage, in my greenhouse, in the ground and in pots sitting on the ground. I have never removed them from the pot to winter them, and never mulched them. If I leave them outside during winter then I simply take them off the bench and set them on the ground. They get buried in snow soon enough. They don't drop branches and the roots don't turn to mush; the deer do prune them for me though. There is more risk in the garage or greenhouse than outside on the ground, and this is due primarily to drying (they will require water, and certain trees more than others).

I don't say this to suggest that you are wrong, because you are not, but rather I say it to suggest there is no single answer. What works for some may not work for others, and there are a multitude of reasons why. All factors are not equal even in the same climate zone.

So, I simply suggest trial and error. Repeat what works. Stop doing what doesn't work. I learn some of the best lessons the hard and expensive way....

 

[Vance Wood]

I live in Michigan too, but on the other side of the State from you. I don't have any problems keeping tridents. I have them in my garage, in my greenhouse, in the ground and in pots sitting on the ground. I have never removed them from the pot to winter them, and never mulched them. If I leave them outside during winter then I simply take them off the bench and set them on the ground. They get buried in snow soon enough. They don't drop branches and the roots don't turn to mush; the deer do prune them for me though. There is more risk in the garage or greenhouse than outside on the ground, and this is due primarily to drying (they will require water, and certain trees more than others).

I don't say this to suggest that you are wrong, because you are not, but rather I say it to suggest there is no single answer. What works for some may not work for others, and there are a multitude of reasons why. All factors are not equal even in the same climate zone.

So, I simply suggest trial and error. Repeat what works. Stop doing what doesn't work. I learn some of the best lessons the hard and expensive way....

You're right I simply shared my experience with them and again it is most likely something I am doing wrong. I hold the same reason against those who claim they cannot grow Mugo Pines in their location.

 

[junmilo]

Trying to attach the photos...

 

[junmilo]

Here's more

 

[Dav4]

Those pines are either dead or have a lot of dead foliage, but might come back. The soil on some looks quite heavy. The cause of their demise was definitely root related, but as to whether it was from drying out or root rot, I can't tell.

 

[junmilo]

I checked their roots...got new roots and growing a lot of them too.

 

[Paradox]

I have found Tridents a bit too fussy for my liking so I no longer grow them. I have found out that if the tree is not root bound or in a pot where the roots are in contact with the bonsai pot they will do OK with a modicum of shelter. However if the roots come into contact with the walls of a ceramic pot they turn to snot and the tree dies. The only way to keep them in our climate is to use a shed (another reason I don't) and take them out of their pots and mulch the soil balls.

Don sent me a trident a couple of weeks ago. The damn thing has apparently been doing very well. Its roots are coming out of the bottom of the pot, some I think are at least 6 inches long if not longer. Cant wait to repot it this spring and see what the rest of it looks like.

Give me some time to get together some photos (need to take current ones) and put something together to send you on my mugos. I am not comfortable posting them. This place can be a tad harsh to less than stellar trees at times and I see no reason to post something that really isnt worth talking about or that I dont have a particular question or need suggestions on yet. I have your email address if its the same one from a month or so ago.