Deciduous yamadori in the US

[rockm]

http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/cedar-elms.294/

 

[Steve Kudela]

Well, I've been waiting for some other pics of deciduous natives. Surely there must be others out there. While we wait, I decided to put up a pic of my old beech. Collected 27 years ago it's beginning to get there. As someone said earlier in this post, it takes long time to build these things. Roughly 2 more years and it's ready for a pot. Mainly working on the bottom right side main branch, it's got to thicken just a tad more. As you already know, american beech is apical dominant, so keeping low branches strong is essential. Since it's finally dormant I'll get pruning and shaping done in the next few days and I'll repost it here. It came from a 20 footer taken down to a 16 inch stump with no branching whatsoever. After shaping it will measure 30 tall, 26 wide. Rootage is 13 inches at soil level and the trunk measures 4 1/2 inches just above the roots. Let's see some others folks. Thanks..................SK

 

[Waldo Street Pottery]

Thanks for sharing Steve, the beech is looking great. Many people shy away from American Beech because of their coarse nature, but bonsai is about patience, and here's 27 years' worth! Having seen this tree in person, I can say it's more powerful and majestic than pics will ever allow! Steve, will you speak on training methods for such a slow growing tree? What do you do in spring as it begins it's growth cycle? Mid year? Etc?

 

[mattspinniken]

Wow! 27 years ago thats amazing, would love to see a picture of what it looked like in the first couple years.

Something interesting about my American Beech...
I collected one in the spring and a few weeks later we had a deep frost that burnt off all of the buds. I thought it was a goner and then about 2 weeks later a hundred new buds appeared all over it. I have heard since, that a tactic for Beech is taking off not only every leaf but every bud on a healthy tree to encourage budding.

Here is a picture I took just now of my tree collected this spring. Sounds like a long journey ahead after the above post.

 

[Andrew Robson]

This is a bit shortsighted and more than a little biased.

It's definitely not easier to grow deciduous trees out rather than looking for decent collected stock. There are spectacular old deciduous trees out there for the taking--you just have to get out and look for them. The oak I posted earlier is 160 years old (I counted the rings in the primary root that points to the front of the tree, 160 is when the rings got too small to count with the eye--I'd say you could probably round it up to 200 easy) That twisted trunk--like old conifer trunks--really can't be reproduced by anyone in their lifetime.

Finally, the thought of "why try to find good deciduous when I can grow my own" is limiting and self-defeating. Thinking that western collected conifers are the "shizzle" is fine, but not even trying by damning deciduous trees with faint praise is silly. The trees are out there. All you have to do is find them.

I didn't say that there weren't collectible deciduous trees out there, I just said you can often grow a better tree. Why? Most collected deciduous trees have problems. Lack of taper, no nebari, terrible branching, old scars that need to be healed, and etc. The list goes on and on. The very best deciduous bonsai in the world have been grown, not collected. They are totally different than the collected conifers we so admire.

In my opinion, the US is catching up to Japan and Europe with our collected conifers, but our deciduous trees are still majorly lacking. Why? The vast majority of bonsai enthusiasts aren't growing them out like the Japanese do...

 

[Andrew Robson]

It's been estimated that one ACRE of Appalachian Cover forest, say in Tennessee, has more tree species in it than ALL of Europe. Wake up and get out and look...

This is meaningless jargon and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. While you are correct about there being more tree species, it has absolutely nothing to do with wheter there are more collectible trees...

 

[rockm]

I didn't say that there weren't collectible deciduous trees out there, I just said you can often grow a better tree. Why? Most collected deciduous trees have problems. Lack of taper, no nebari, terrible branching, old scars that need to be healed, and etc. The list goes on and on. The very best deciduous bonsai in the world have been grown, not collected. They are totally different than the collected conifers we so admire.

In my opinion, the US is catching up to Japan and Europe with our collected conifers, but our deciduous trees are still majorly lacking. Why? The vast majority of bonsai enthusiasts aren't growing them out like the Japanese do...

Jesus, c'mon. A number of things you mention here show you have limited or no experience collecting trees and a flat out bias against them for some odd reason.

For instance, how come the same stuff you mention as being somehow "bad" for collected deciduous trees is different when they're on "admired" collected conifers? No they're not perfectly sculpted precious little gems. They are wild, rough, rugged trees with considerable character that field grown tree will never have.

The "problems" you describe, lack taper, nebari (and I'd say THAT is pretty far from the truth, as collected deciduous trees OFTEN have pretty damn nice nebari--ever collected an American hornbeam from a mud flat?), etc.

So, just because the Japanese don't collect deciduous stuff (and that's questionable too), we shouldn't because it takes some refinement. That's a pretty weak argument.

And the number of species in our country has a great deal to do with this. The Japanese and Chinese homelands were also so blessed with a wide variety of tree species--more so than Western Europe. (BTW, both of those countries share species or relative species with North American trees) They exploited those species into a variety of bonsai. They adapted their WILD SPECIES like maple and a ume and (add in your favorite deciduous species) to refine them as bonsai for crying out loud.

 

[Giga]

Well, I've been waiting for some other pics of deciduous natives. Surely there must be others out there. While we wait, I decided to put up a pic of my old beech. Collected 27 years ago it's beginning to get there. As someone said earlier in this post, it takes long time to build these things. Roughly 2 more years and it's ready for a pot. Mainly working on the bottom right side main branch, it's got to thicken just a tad more. As you already know, american beech is apical dominant, so keeping low branches strong is essential. Since it's finally dormant I'll get pruning and shaping done in the next few days and I'll repost it here. It came from a 20 footer taken down to a 16 inch stump with no branching whatsoever. After shaping it will measure 30 tall, 26 wide. Rootage is 13 inches at soil level and the trunk measures 4 1/2 inches just above the roots. Let's see some others folks. Thanks..................SKView attachment 89128

Very nice!, I have an American beech too and it has great character and you just solidified my confidence in the species. I will find a few more this spring

 

[Andrew Robson]

Jesus, c'mon. A number of things you mention here show you have limited or no experience collecting trees and a flat out bias against them for some odd reason.

You are correct, I have little experience personally collecting trees myself. I buy from people like Randy Knight, Andy Smith, and plan on getting a few trees from Backcountry in the near future.

I am an avid hiker, and can tell you from my experience roaming the Northeastern and Midwestern woods, I haven't ever come across a decidious tree worth collecting.

 

[Andrew Robson]

For instance, how come the same stuff you mention as being somehow "bad" for collected deciduous trees is different when they're on "admired" collected conifers?

The "problems" you describe, lack taper, nebari (and I'd say THAT is pretty far from the truth, as collected deciduous trees OFTEN have pretty damn nice nebari

Because we look for different things in conifers and deciduous trees. They're not supposed to look the same.

 

[Andrew Robson]

They adapted their WILD SPECIES like maple and a ume and (add in your favorite deciduous species) to refine them as bonsai for crying out loud.

They did, and I believe we should be doing the same thing. But they did so with their decidious by growing them. Michael Hagedorn has a beautiful red maple that's been grown from a seedling. http://crataegus.com/tag/red-maple-bonsai/

 

[Steve Kudela]

Thanks for sharing Steve, the beech is looking great. Many people shy away from American Beech because of their coarse nature, but bonsai is about patience, and here's 27 years' worth! Having seen this tree in person, I can say it's more powerful and majestic than pics will ever allow! Steve, will you speak on training methods for such a slow growing tree? What do you do in spring as it begins it's growth cycle? Mid year? Etc?

Hey, thanks a million Eli!!! I'll be done in a day or two, probably get it done tonight. I'm ready! After the work is done, I'll take additional pics of some of the details that I've discovered and talk a little about it. The pics will hopefully help clarify some things. Thanks again, Sir.

 

[Giga]

You are correct, I have little experience personally collecting trees myself. I buy from people like Randy Knight, Andy Smith, and plan on getting a few trees from Backcountry in the near future.

I am an avid hiker, and can tell you from my experience roaming the Northeastern and Midwestern woods, I haven't ever come across a decidious tree worth collecting.

I find this very hard to fathom as I live in Virginia beach and there is great material around and it's very flat around here. I've got beech, mulberry, sweetgum, red maple, bald cypress, bradfordpear and some others

 

[Steve Kudela]

Wow! 27 years ago thats amazing, would love to see a picture of what it looked like in the first couple years.

Something interesting about my American Beech...
I collected one in the spring and a few weeks later we had a deep frost that burnt off all of the buds. I thought it was a goner and then about 2 weeks later a hundred new buds appeared all over it. I have heard since, that a tactic for Beech is taking off not only every leaf but every bud on a healthy tree to encourage budding.

Here is a picture I took just now of my tree collected this spring. Sounds like a long journey ahead after the above post.

Thanks Matt, mine had an odd thing happen with budding way back when. When I get done shaping in a day or so, I'll put up an additional pic of it and tell about it. I wish I had pics of it from the early days. I just started photographing the trees in the last 2 years or so.

 

[Steve Kudela]

Very nice!, I have an American beech too and it has great character and you just solidified my confidence in the species. I will find a few more this spring

Thank you, Sir!! Glad to be of service! I think that they should be used more. Go get 'em!!

 

[rockm]

They did, and I believe we should be doing the same thing. But they did so with their decidious by growing them. Michael Hagedorn has a beautiful red maple that's been grown from a seedling. http://crataegus.com/tag/red-maple-bonsai/

You are correct, I have little experience personally collecting trees myself. I buy from people like Randy Knight, Andy Smith, and plan on getting a few trees from Backcountry in the near future.

I am an avid hiker, and can tell you from my experience roaming the Northeastern and Midwestern woods, I haven't ever come across a decidious tree worth collecting.

There are spectacular hardwoods in the South, Southeast, MidAtlantic, South-Southwest, not to mention along the spine of the Appalachians the river valleys of the mid-Atlantic and a thousand other places in the U.S., even in the Northeast and Midwest. I've seen them and collected a few. It's a shame you've limited yourself to such a little patch of possibilities and are so dismissive. That's a mistake, but it leaves more for us less-discerning types.

The best bonsai worthy deciduous trees aren't in majestic, windswept plateaus like conifers. They tend to be down in the river bottoms, mountain hollers, lowland muck, and low altitude mountains in the dense hardwood tangle with the snakes and ticks--places hikers don't frequent all that much.

Places like this
http://www.nationalparklover.com/big_thicket07.htm
and this
http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/natural-heritage/natural-communities/ncpiiim
and this
http://www.blueridgelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Travis-KOshko-BRP-Flag.jpg

They're also not obvious like their "LOOK AT ME IM FABULOUS" coniferous western counterparts. They're subtle and sometimes sunken in the mud or smashed underneath big old growth parent trees, or hiding in plain sight among hundreds of their brothers...
You also have to know the woods and what you're looking at. Some imagination is also needed to coax their best.

 

[Giga]

There are spectacular hardwoods in the South, Southeast, MidAtlantic, South-Southwest, not to mention along the spine of the Appalachians the river valleys of the mid-Atlantic and a thousand other places in the U.S., even in the Northeast and Midwest. I've seen them and collected a few. It's a shame you've limited yourself to such a little patch of possibilities and are so dismissive. That's a mistake, but it leaves more for us less-discerning types.

The best bonsai worthy deciduous trees aren't in majestic, windswept plateaus like conifers. They tend to be down in the river bottoms, mountain hollers, lowland muck, and low altitude mountains in the dense hardwood tangle with the snakes and ticks--places hikers don't frequent all that much.

Or stinky bogs for good baldies.

 

[Jester217300]

(and I'd say THAT is pretty far from the truth, as collected deciduous trees OFTEN have pretty damn nice nebari--ever collected an American hornbeam from a mud flat?)

This may not be "world class" material but I think this tree demonstrates your point pretty well. Very close to perfect radial spread.

http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/hornbeam-clump.18691/

 

[rockm]

If you scroll to the bottom of that cedar elm link I posted (at the tope of this page) and look at Art rodriguez's CE, you will note the pretty damn nice nebari on it. Carolina Hornbeam are notorious for having outstanding roots. In fact, I have seen bad nebari on Carolina hornbeam on only a handful of trees.

 

[Waltron]

[
Larch, jack pine, American red pine, willows, birches, both hornbeams - Carpinus and Ostrya, deciduous native Ilex, Amelanchier (serviceberry), native hawthorns, oaks, dogwoods, alders, sumacs, persimmon, and more should all be looked at for bonsai if you are in Michigan, IL or Wisc.[/QUOTE]

do you have a photo of an alder bonsai?