Cut back on a JBP

Dav4

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You have a problem with Formal Upright?

I like JBP. I have lots of different styles of JBP. Formals, Informals, Slants, Sumo, Exposed Root, Shohin, Cascade, etc.

Yes, I prefer traditional Japanese styling for JBP. You may consider it cookie cutter. It's also quite challenging.

I have an idea: please start a thread of your "non cookie cutter" pines! I'd love to see examples of your work!

Yoda's idea of good bonsai is anything non Japanese and preferably collected from a hillside out west. Fwiw, I think we should go easy on him as I believe he went to the groomers over the weekend for a sanitary clip and is a bit uncomfortable right now if you know what I mean;).
 

Adair M

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Nothing wrong with yamadori, if that's your thing.

You know, each person's favorite style of bonsai probably depends upon their home environment. For example, we don't get twisted trees with deadwood here, like they do in the mountains in the West. We get too much rain.

This tree, is growing on the top of Brasstown Bald mountain. The highest peak in Georgia. If it's not the tree on the highest elevation in Georgia, it's close. It's the first tree on the pathway going back down.

image.jpeg

It gets probably the harshest weather in the State. It has some jins, but not the twisted, gnarly form that the Ponderosas and junipers get out West.

Looks pretty much like a Formal Upright to me. With some literati character.

I guess we're just cuttin' cookies here in Georgia.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Adair M - your tree is one fine tree. It has one thing that is very difficult to get, the look and feel of a century old tree. Every one of your branches has the appropriate aged look to them to match the trunk. You can't just replace that. It would take at least 50 years for a grafted replacement branch to "blend in". Wabi-Sabi must have age as a component, and this tree has it.

The taper of the trunk is fabulous, stepping down at each branch. The internode between branches steps down successively, While the tree has the flaws you cite, the aged look, the bark, and the whole "gestalt' trump the flaws. I can not recall any formal uprights being posted in this forum that looked anywhere near this refined. You only see these in photos from Japan. I would not cut any branches off. Wabi Sabi includes the flaws, along with the age, and the two are in balance here to my eye.

As to looking natural, Just look at an eastern white pine, P. strobus. An old one in an open field will look quite similar, except the strobus will have one or two branches at higher levels that are unusually long and thick compared to the regular progression of branches in your JBP. You tree does look natural. And when you hide the branch thickness with foliage, it really looks good. Spruces have the descending branches, pines the branches run out horizontal with the foliage slightly above. Your tree has all the traits of an old field grown pine. And it has the feel of great age.

I would be proud to own such a tree. and would strive to mere keep it conforming to its current design.

When Kimura take an ancient century old pine and re-styles it, it is not "just to change it", it is only done when accident, disease or miss-handling of the old masterpiece rendered it not worthy of exhibition, and it is not in a state that it could be brought back to its former glory. You don't just change a tree like this with a century of capable, masterful cultivation behind it. It is mind boggling the decades of work that went into this tree.

My Ponderosa, collected in 2014 might have an older trunk, but the foliage is sparse and loose, and it will need 5 decades of work to begin to have the air of refinement of an old Japanese bonsai. I have every intention of living long enough to see it through, though at 61 years old, it is doubtful I'll last another 5 decades. No reason to not set high goals. :)

My point, this tree has the one trait you can not fake quickly, AGE. You don't willy nilly just cut off branches that old on a tree. Adair's goal of simply continuing the refinement is the absolute best thing for this tree. Anything else would border on criminal destruction of an art work.

I am not normally given to praising too highly or at length any tree. But those who referred to this tree as "cookie cutter" just infuriated me at their casual dismissal of the century long dedication that at least 5 generations of growers already put into this tree. When it was started, refined formal uprights were not common, and guess what? A century later refined formal uprights are even less common. To do anything other than continue the work of refining this tree toward the design goal set for it a century ago, would be wrong. And more so than any other style, formal uprights are grown as such right from the young seedling stage.

Think about it, some might say they have seen to many "formal uprights", but is it because you saw too many photos of the same handful of formal uprights in collections in Japan, or is it because you have seen that many in person? I for one recall only a couple formal uprights that I saw in person, and most were shohin size. Why do you see so many photos? Because they are striking, have visual impact, and photographers love them. Very few have seen many in person, they are not that common. Its the photos some of you are tired of. Not the trees.

Rant over, I'll crawl back into my cave.
 

Potawatomi13

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Older than most on here but in past 2 years have learned to see with new eyes. To some it would be to finally see the light. Personal greatest "creation" is likely Bristlecone pine on that thread. Can see that many different perspectives or "love" of particular design or philosophy of Bonsai exist clearly. Or clearly exist. One does not have to jump off cliff to see it is painfully stupid idea. Nor does one need to kiss to see this is most wonderful thing. No more does one have to be master nor create great "masterpieces" to know what is beautiful and awe inspiring. Easy to see work and adherence to most stringent rules/disciplines to create such a tree as under current discussion. However today this seems to me more an exercise in tedious adherence to most formal rules to produce trees that look for all practical purposes nearly identical to many others. In the end these judged by masters or trained judges for how well rules were followed and how "perfect" tree is. Is it not? There is little or no unique soul or personality to these trees. Essence of cookie cutter definition to self. Seedlings and young trees I have to develop as unique individuals as long as they or I live. Also have obtained several genuine Yamadori in past 2 years which already have unique qualities, age and great beauty which God created and by His grace I will TRY to make even more beautiful. But not perfect. Honestly can not see any great beauty in most common design man grown/nursery trees if they follow most common forms. Something akin to looking at hillside of timber trees. Seems a lot of wasted effort for what? If personally fulfilling is up to you. Is not to me. About 1958 first Bonsai ever before my eyes was beautiful Vine Maple. This was American Bonsai tree and great introduction. Japanese trees and bindings of super refinement and rules may be fine for you. But not for me. This need to have perfect trees just makes unattractive/undesireable for this one. Without wildness tree has lost soul or wabi sabi or whatever makes unique and different. Perhaps you can appreciate Master Kimuras trees if not my words. Perhaps he and Master Naka are fathers of American Bonsai. It is their wisdom I prefer to follow;).
 

Adair M

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So, Pot, for you, anything man made is cookie cutter? It's all got to be yamadori? To be beautiful, it has to be something taken from a natural environment?

Ya know, I have mixed feelings about yamadori. These trees were created by God, have grown in the mountains for hundreds of years and are spectacular. What gives us the right to remove them? There is the risk of killing the tree while attempting to collect it. If it's beautiful now, wouldn't it be even more beautiful 100 years from now? How about 200? 1000?

Frankly, there's a good argument that collecting yamadori should be banned! Shimpaku no longer exists in the wild in Japan. They've all been collected. (Or so I've been told.) So now, every single one HAS to be "cookie cutter", there is no other choice.

I don't want this thread to become about yamadori.

But Pots, really, your mindset of "yamadori or bust" making you look foolish. As is your manner of writing, as trying to have Yoda wisdom. Yoda, by the way is fiction. Great role model...
 

Adair M

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I really like your tree, it's an amazing piece of art.
Thanks. I've only owned it for a year and a half. It's been trained by many people during its life. I'm it's steward for now.

When working on a tree like this, knowing its older than I am, and it will hopefully outlive me, it causes you to think hard about everything I do to it. I don't want somebody in the future saying, "Wow, this was a great tree until that Adair M got ahold of it!" Lol!!
 
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So, Pot, for you, anything man made is cookie cutter? It's all got to be yamadori? To be beautiful, it has to be something taken from a natural environment?

Ya know, I have mixed feelings about yamadori. These trees were created by God, have grown in the mountains for hundreds of years and are spectacular. What gives us the right to remove them? There is the risk of killing the tree while attempting to collect it. If it's beautiful now, wouldn't it be even more beautiful 100 years from now? How about 200? 1000?

Frankly, there's a good argument that collecting yamadori should be banned! Shimpaku no longer exists in the wild in Japan. They've all been collected. (Or so I've been told.) So now, every single one HAS to be "cookie cutter", there is no other choice.

I don't want this thread to become about yamadori.

But Pots, really, your mindset of "yamadori or bust" making you look foolish. As is your manner of writing, as trying to have Yoda wisdom. Yoda, by the way is fiction. Great role model...
Wasting your time, you are.
 

Potawatomi13

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So, Pot, for you, anything man made is cookie cutter? It's all got to be yamadori? To be beautiful, it has to be something taken from a natural environment?

Not necessarily. Letting personal anger blind and govern your comments is unwise.
 

Adair M

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Not necessarily. Letting personal anger blind and govern your comments is unwise.
Lol!!!

Pots, I'm not angry with you! I just think you're clueless!

You don't like my style of trees? Classical bonsai? Fine. Do your own thing. But Classical Bonsai is not "cookie cutter". Certainly not at the level of refinement of this tree.

I think of trees uses for bonsai like musical instruments. A violin, for example, can be played Classicly, as in Bach or Mozart. The same instrument is used to play Bluegrass as a fiddle! They sound entirely different! Same instrument.

Now, before I put you on ignore (as, apparently, many others have) please start a thread of some of your creative trees. You say mine are no good, that you have seen the path to create great bonsai... It's hard for me or anyone to be able to follow that path if you don't show it. Please create a new thread so that we all can be enlightened!
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Now, before I put you on ignore (as, apparently, many others have) please start a thread of some of your creative trees. You say mine are no good, that you have seen the path to create great bonsai... It's hard for me or anyone to be able to follow that path if you don't show it. Please create a new thread so that we all can be enlightened!
Try to keep up Adair...I'm way out front, but slowin' my roll...:p
Good? or trash?
Literati Pine?
 

Anthony

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Adair,

thanks for the letter, I am well.

You might have forgotten our discussion on branch to tree proportions for a J.B.pine.

Here is an image of the philosophy we use.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/20/48/a3/2048a3320115c5c980f66de5339fb945.jpg

So I have no problems with your tree and the thick branches, and boy did it take a while to re-find that image.
Good Day
Anthony

* other example - not sure if it is a J.B.pine
https://chipango.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/japanese-pine-kenrokuen-reffert.jpg

one more -
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e3/be/26/e3be2653cdd3f00b88b21043a3c6ff24.jpg
 

Adair M

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Adair,

thanks for the letter, I am well.

You might have forgotten our discussion on branch to tree proportions for a J.B.pine.

Here is an image of the philosophy we use.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/20/48/a3/2048a3320115c5c980f66de5339fb945.jpg

So I have no problems with your tree and the thick branches, and boy did it take a while to re-find that image.
Good Day
Anthony

* other example - not sure if it is a J.B.pine
https://chipango.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/japanese-pine-kenrokuen-reffert.jpg

one more -
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e3/be/26/e3be2653cdd3f00b88b21043a3c6ff24.jpg
Those are indeed old trees, Anthony. But none are formal uprights. FUs are supposed to be "ideal" trees, with perfect conformation, taper, nebari, etc. it's not an attempt to copy nature. It's an attempt to create the "perfect" tree.
 

Wilson

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Beautiful pine, a classic image! I never really understood people throwing around "cookie cutter" when talking about formal/informal uprights. I am in the great white north, land of a million christmas trees, but as I learn more about bonsai I realize how hard it is to develop a beauty like this! I aspire to develop a tree as majestic as this one, just gotta keep practicing! Thanks for sharing!
 

drew33998

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Those are indeed old trees, Anthony. But none are formal uprights. FUs are supposed to be "ideal" trees, with perfect conformation, taper, nebari, etc. it's not an attempt to copy nature. It's an attempt to create the "perfect" tree.

I've never heard an FU that was ideal.
 
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