Collecting Trees from Nature for Bonsai

[Anonymous User]

Attila,

Thanks for the debate, as usual it was thought provoking and left much resolved and a few more questions, but also some new thoughts to explore.


About four years ago I wrote a short article titled "Defining Bonsai" and in it I offered the following definition for bonsai, "A living, artistically created, idealized vision of a tree, cultivated in a container."

Carl Bergstrom then added to this definition and it became, "A living, artistically created, idealized vision of a tree, cultivated and displayed in a container."

This led to a really good and (as usual for AoB) civil discussion on what exactly a bonsai is, those interested can read the entire article and discussion at http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=195

Idealized vision, that just about covers any form of bonsai, even if one took it to surrealism or other artistic forms of expression. The problem is not in the creation, but in the judging which is based on comparing an artistic creation to only what occurs in nature instead of the sole image presented.



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

With this narcissistic attitude of yours that photo has got to be eating you alive. What did you do run the manuscript thru spellcheck and call yourself an editor. You obviously had no control over placement or say so over important issues like photo's.

My wife has been a professional editor for almost 18 years now. If what happened to you happened on her watch, heads would roll. She would probably lose her job since she works in probably the most egotistical genre on earth. The music business.

What happened to you is akin to Diamond Dave introducing the band and saying: "On lead guitar, Lenny Van Huewlin. You can blame it on Robert here and some may believe you, but for all those that could care less about internet forums and do not know who you are, this is a glaring mistake for the guy who's name is on the cover. I totally believe you had nothing to do with it. If you would have had controll you can bet your bottom dollar your name and your picture would have been the rightest thing in the book. That you can take to the bank.

Yawn!

As I explained here http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=41907&postcount=42 once already...

"Al is referring to my picture that heads up the preface I wrote for Robert Stevens new book, "Mission of Transformation" on which William Valavanis's name is under it. Al, not having a clue about writing, publishing, or working with publishers, printers, etc, somehow thinks I was so stupid as not to put my own name under my own picture, when in fact the pictures of Walter, Valavanis, Robert, and myself were added after the final edit was sent back to Robert who added a few sections, sentences, and paragraphs to the final edit before sending it to the printer who then mixed up a couple things, my name under the picture for example. Ah well, things happen, and life goes on, at least they got my name on the cover right.

Now Al, is in all his wondrous glory, running around naked, laughing like a banshee, hugging strangers, kissing strange men, believing he has something big to bash me with, but it is nothing, I don't care and it is my name, why should he?"

If my own picture being mistitled is the biggest thing you have to whine about Al, you really need to get a life. By the way, the book is selling better than anticipated, thanks for buying a copy.

 

[Redwing]

Is there really no room for surrealism in bonsai?

/hot like your sister

 

[Anonymous User]

/hot like your sister

Uh, care to keep my sister out of this?



NIce bonsai potato, lol.

 

[Vance Wood]

I believe there is room for Surrealism. In fact if you look at it honestly bonsai is an exercise in surrealism in that you are using one thing to represent something similar but not exactly the same in that you are creating the form of an old tree with a tree that under normal circumstances would probably assume an entirely different form. Bonsai is a form of fantasy.

 

[Attila Soos]

Attila,

Thanks for the debate, as usual it was thought provoking and left much resolved and a few more questions, but also some new thoughts to explore.

Well, all I was saying is that I like bonsai that remind me of trees, they doesn't necessarily have to copy trees.

So, does that mean that I lost this debate, or I won? Let me know, I'm good either way.

 

[Anonymous User]

So, does that mean that I lost this debate, or I won? Let me know, I'm good either way.

Leave out the insults, personal attacks, and other filler and everyone wins in a debate. At worst a person reconfirms their beliefs, at best they add to what they already knew, a good debate is a win/win situation for all, even those who don't participate. The only losers are those who try and stop the sharing of thoughts and knowledge.


Right now I have Hyousou on my mind.....





Will

 

[mcpesq817]

I'll match my actual contributions to the bonsai community against yours any day, you keep writing the checks, I'll keep making sure that the checks you write get larger every year.

Will

Harry sharing his beautiful trees with the rest of us on this and other boards is a bigger contribution to the bonsai community than articles on the use of chopsticks, especially when half of the article turned out to be completely plagiarized.

"Those who can't do, teach" (or at least they try to teach). People learn a lot more about the art of bonsai from people who are kind enough to contribute to the community by hosting workshops, conducting lectures, posting their trees and development sequences, and answering questions posed by others than from long-winded articles on "what is art" or "the problem with bonsai forums". Since you can't do the former, you throw out assinine garbage to puff yourself up as some expert - and even that you can't do correctly because plenty of your work has been shown to be plagiarized, not appropriately attributed, etc.

Also, it's pretty astounding that you cite to yourself as an expert to "prove" whatever points you're trying to make. And it's even more ridiculous that you don't cite to real experts out there, but rather to a self-proclaimed "half assed writer with plenty of room for improvement."

 

[mcpesq817]

Hey Will, here's what we can do to prove a point. You post one of your creations representing what you feel is the new movement in bonsai and I'll post one of my traditional trees styled by Marco and maintained by me and we will run a poll and ask the BNUT's which way they would like to see bonsai go in the future, up for a challenge ?

keep it green,
Harry

Don't hold your breath Harry. We're all still waiting to see Will post some trees in response to the challenge he gave Al back a few months ago.

 

[ovation22]

You keep buying your bonsai and pretending you're an artist and I'll keep growing and designing my own, for better or for worse, they are my own work.

Okay Bozo, show me one place, ever, where I ever claimed to be anything but at a beginner level in bonsai. Please for once, prove your words.

All you have accomplished in bonsai is writing a few checks, my eight year old daughter could do that, big deal, and she most likely has better penmanship to boot.

I'll match my actual contributions to the bonsai community against yours any day, you keep writing the checks, I'll keep making sure that the checks you write get larger every year.

Leave out the insults, personal attacks, and other filler and everyone wins in a debate. At worst a person reconfirms their beliefs, at best they add to what they already knew, a good debate is a win/win situation for all, even those who don't participate. The only losers are those who try and stop the sharing of thoughts and knowledge.

...Kimura.

Since Mr. Kimura was invoked, how do you think it is that he can afford to be a full-time bonsai professional?

This ticks me off, Will, primarily because it is so totally backward from the things you claim to advocate.

Nothing will advance the art in the US as fast as the presence of enthusiastic, financially-able collectors who can and do create a market for high-end material and expert artists' care.

-rw

I'm inclined to agree with Redwing here.


*Edit, since it could be argued as off-topic, I've moved my comment to it's own thread, here.

 

[rockm]

The problem with holding fast to either end of the "natural" or "artful" perspectives, is that neither encompasses what bonsai is.

People come to bonsai with individual perspectives, expectations, needs and influences. What is "bonsai" to one, isn't to another. Take Harry (please ) for example. His vision of what bonsai is centers very much on the "Japaneseness" of it. His vision is tied to the art.hobby.craft's long history and the traditional image generated in that island chain. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. It's his vision. It's valid.

My vision is driven by the natural world around me, from natural scenery from many places in the US. I like native trees that take on the forms that I see around me. They don't look like Japanese trees. They look like American trees. As a sometime hunter and long time redneck, those trees and associated landscapes evoke nostalgic feelings for me.

Others look past the species and origins into more pure shape and abstract form. Those images aren't necessarily tied to "natural" images. They're more Jackson Pollack than Andrew Wyeth...

All of these, and many more (each varying by person) are valid, I think. There's certainly more than one or two ways to make a good bonsai. At its heart, bonsai is about human feelings, not trees, really.

 

[Tachigi]

The problem with holding fast to either end of the "natural" or "artful" perspectives, is that neither encompasses what bonsai is......... At its heart, bonsai is about human feelings, not trees, really.

One of the better explanations I have yet to see, well put Mark.

Now if we could stop trying to pigeon hole bonsai and except (whether you like it a certain style or not) all forms and appreciate them for what they are.

What was the literal translation of bonsai again?

 

[greerhw]

One of the better explanations I have yet to see, well put Mark.

Now if we could stop trying to pigeon hole bonsai and except (whether you like it a certain style or not) all forms and appreciate them for what they are.

What was the literal translation of bonsai again?

EXPENSIVE!!!!

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Anonymous User]

Now if we could stop trying to pigeon hole bonsai and except (whether you like it a certain style or not) all forms and appreciate them for what they are.

This has been my point.

What was the literal translation of bonsai again?

"The Japanese word bonsai directly translates as "to plant into a shallow container (tray). The word "tree" is nowhere in that translation. This is a common misconception among westerners." - William N. Valavanis http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19932&postcount=36


"The word "tree" is nowhere in that translation."




Will

 

[Anonymous User]

mcpesq817,

Usually I just ignore your posts as they often are not worth the calories burnt to read them, however, you managed to surpass your usual level of ignorance with the post quoted in part below and I feel a reality check is in order....

Harry sharing his beautiful trees with the rest of us on this and other boards is a bigger contribution to the bonsai community than articles on the use of chopsticks, especially when half of the article turned out to be completely plagiarized.

If sharing photographs of beautiful trees is the measuring stick you use to determine a person's contributions to the community than consider http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9 which should well qualify as a call, and I'll raise you http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=23 Need I mention that nothing like the linked pages existed before AoB and that they are still the most comprehensive collection of quality bonsai from around the world? I always find it amusing when someone who does nothing criticizes those who actually do.

As to the worn and tired plagiarism complaint, this was hashed out long before you were even a member on any bonsai forum. I missed a citation on only the intro to the article wrote in 2006 and published in the ABS Journal that same year. It could have well been argued that the intro was in the public domain, as it can be found on at least 8 different pages and is not attributed to any author on any of them, however, since I missed the citation, I not only publicly apologized at the time, I notated the article and ABS ran a paragraph in the following issue. I also contacted the source I used, apologized, and received full and unlimited permission to use it. I have been published in the ABS Journal six times since that article and have received valuable content from the original source of the intro since.

You'll have to do better than that.

...People learn a lot more about the art of bonsai from people who are kind enough to contribute to the community by hosting workshops, conducting lectures, posting their trees and development sequences, and answering questions posed by others

And I do all that, as well as help run a couple forums, write articles, edit books, manage contests, etc etc etc


It is pretty plain to all that, like in other threads, you were not participating in the discussion here at all and you just popped in to take a few lame shots at me. Your motives are showing....

...back to ignoring you....


Will

 

[ovation22]

It could have well been argued that the intro was in the public domain, as it can be found on at least 8 different pages and is not attributed to any author on any of them, however, since I missed the citation, I not only publicly apologized at the time, I notated the article and ABS ran a paragraph in the following issue.

Will,

I'm glad the plagiarism thing has been cleared up, and I'm sorry for continuing this tangent, but you seem to be misunderstanding or misusing the term "public domain".

Here's the first Google hit for "public domain and plagiarism":

Works that are no longer protected by copyright, or never have been, are considered "public domain." This means that you may freely borrow material from these works without fear of plagiarism, provided you make proper attributions.

And the 2nd Google hit:

Proper attribution should still be given to authors of public domain works even though public domain works may be used without permission. It is important to note that the mere appearance of a work on a website does not necessarily indicate that the work is in the public domain or that permission has been granted to use the work other than for individual use.

Now that that's all cleared up, back on topic.

 

[mcpesq817]

As to the worn and tired plagiarism complaint, this was hashed out long before you were even a member on any bonsai forum. I missed a citation on only the intro to the article wrote in 2006 and published in the ABS Journal that same year.

Nice revisionist history. You completely plagiarize the intro to one of your articles, and now couch it as an accident that you forgot to drop a citation. And of course, you try and dismiss a pretty egregious error by saying it was "only the intro." Pretty laughable - as you told me, "you'll have to do better than that."

And I do all that, as well as help run a couple forums, write articles, edit books, manage contests, etc etc etc

Right, as well as cause trouble on various bonsai forums causing you to get banned

What about your challenge to Al? He's put up five trees - where are yours? It was your challenge, remember?

 

[Klytus]

There was one,Will already showed us his Spur.

 

[mcpesq817]

There was one,Will already showed us his Spur.

Was that the half dead stick in a pot juniper with the 1" branch of foliage and likely root rot?

 

[Klytus]

It took courage.