Cut to two buds = ramification. Really?

[butlern]

I have been trying very hard to encourage my cedar elm to ramify, but everywhere I cut to two buds, only the distal grows (top arrow in the representative example below), while the proximal bud just sits there and sulks (bottom arrow)

What gives?!

Noah

 

[Fishtank307]

Difference in height, maybe? I'd imagine this happens to branches that are growing in the apex? Different growing rates in branches can be a pain in the a**

 

[butlern]

a reasonable hypothesis, Fishtank, but this is happening all over the tree. This pic was taken about 60% up from the base, along the side of the tree.

Frustrating as heck!

 

[bonsaibp]

Try cutting remaining leaves in half, that usually stimulates those others buds and some further back to start pushing.

 

[butlern]

oooooh. Interesting.

I'll give that a try!

Thanks, Bob.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If you note in your photo - you didn't cut to two buds - you cut to three. The key is to let the new growth push, unrestrained, harden, and then you cut back back hard - two leaves on weak growth and one leaf on strong growth - and no leaves on a long shoot with too long internodes.

From a horticultural perspective think of it this way - you let the tree grow and bulk up with energy, and then you cut back hard and remove the source of auxin (branch tips) that suppress bud development. If you cut back too early and there is no stored energy - no new buds. If you wimp out and don't cut back hard enough and don't eliminate enough sources of auxin - no new buds.

 

[0soyoung]

If you note in your photo - you didn't cut to two buds - you cut to three. The key is to let the new growth push, unrestrained, harden, and then you cut back back hard - two leaves on weak growth and one leaf on strong growth - and no leaves on a long shoot with too long internodes.

From a horticultural perspective think of it this way - you let the tree grow and bulk up with energy, and then you cut back hard and remove the source of auxin (branch tips) that suppress bud development. If you cut back too early and there is no stored energy - no new buds. If you wimp out and don't cut back hard enough and don't eliminate enough sources of auxin - no new buds.

This really pains me. It is auxin, not 'energy'. There is lots of auxin generated in elongating tissues, but it isn't being exported down the stem. Therefore, when one cuts soft, unhardened stems, it has little or no effect. Once hardened, auxin is being exported. Then lopping off the auxin produces releases bud(s) --> Thiman=Skoog, nearly 100 years ago now.

Just gravitropism reduces the auxin flow enough to release interior elm buds.
Wire your shoot and bend the tip down. Position the node where you want a new branch to be at, or near, the top of the arc. Wait a week or two. It is just like 'pegging' roses.

The other part is that soft, unhardened tissues are consuming more carbohydrate than they produce. So, removing it does just reduce carbon in either case. But hardened foliage allowed to remain exports lots of carbohydrate - thus feeds the rest of the tree. Feed your tree for a while by keeping the hardened new growth for a while if you want to build its strength (opp. if you want to weaken it).

 

[butlern]

Three buds?

Is this the third? (light green with ??)

If so, I can now see the errors in my ways. There are several of these (assumed irregularities in the bark) on the other branches that also didn't seem to respond by breaking two buds.

Perhaps, from now on, I will need to wear my glasses while pruning

 

[butlern]

Also, would you not have considered that growth I pruned to have been "hardened off?"

On the branches I pruned, the growth had stopped elongating, the stems were darkening/browning, and the leaves were all dark green with shiny/waxy surfaces (as shown in picture).

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Also, would you not have considered that growth I pruned to have been "hardened off?"

On the branches I pruned, the growth had stopped elongating, the stems were darkening/browning, and the leaves were all dark green with shiny/waxy surfaces (as shown in picture).

I would say that looks hardened off to me. Assuming, of course, that where you cut had brown branch, dark green and waxy leaves on it. Another thing I have been doing a lot of reading and viewing on with regards to back-budding is that while a lot of people say cut to two leaves, there is some contention as to whether or not you should cut to three. Reason being, the compartmentalization of the dead tissue might not produce a bud at the cut site, depending on how well cut they are. It can never hurt to try it on one branch if this problem is happening across the tree. I did it with a Jacqueline Hillier Elm and the tree has responded wonderfully. Two new shoots coming from the one cut.

Note: I think I see something you should correct in your cut placement. You seem to be leaving a lot of excess branch between where you cut and the next internode. Cut directly past the node you wish to produce a bud, or two, be that as it may. I am wondering if your tree is spending some energy healing the wound and instead of producing two shoots, is spending energy on repair and one shoot. @Osoyoung , you seem to be more knowledgeable in the horticulture here, does leaving that much additional branch to die back produce a lower probability of ramification at a cut point?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The other part is that soft, unhardened tissues are consuming more carbohydrate than they produce. So, removing it does just reduce carbon in either case. But hardened foliage allowed to remain exports lots of carbohydrate - thus feeds the rest of the tree. Feed your tree for a while by keeping the hardened new growth for a while if you want to build its strength (opp. if you want to weaken it).

I'm not sure you read what I wrote, or else it was misunderstood, since you seem (at least to me) to be repeating back exactly what I said.

Photosynthesis creates energy for the tree in terms of carbohydrates. You allow foliage to extend and harden off and photosynthesize to put the tree in an energy positive state. Then when you prune the tree and reduce the source of auxin, bud development is no longer suppressed by auxin AND the tree has the energy necessary to push the buds.

Yes it is a little simplistic to think of it this way, since there are other plant hormones at play in addition to auxin, but it gets the point across.

 

[sorce]

I have been trying very hard to encourage my cedar elm to ramify

Over how long of a time would you say the quoted has been taking place?

Sorce

 

[0soyoung]

I'm not sure you read what I wrote, or else it was misunderstoo

You are correct. My reading was incomprehensive.
Thanks for your forbearance.

 

[GrimLore]

Also, would you not have considered that growth I pruned to have been "hardened off?"

I am pretty certain it is a matter of opinion. Myself I consider growth that has mature bark and no longer bends easily to be "hardened off" on the plants I am used to dealing with.

Grimmy

 

[butlern]

Over how long of a time would you say the quoted has been taking place?

This summer comprises the first set of experiments.

Got the tree in late spring. I first pruned in early June, and it responded by throwing vigorous growth from distal buds, as noted in first post. Tried again 3 days ago as a lot of those extensions hardened off (hardened, from my perspective)... same result.

Will more carefully examine buds, hardening, etc... next spring. Best not to keep whacking at this thing as fall descends and the growing season comes to an end.

Thanks for replies, gents.

Noah

 

[LanceMac10]

How about one of these of the whole tree? An elm, if that's at the crown, I would cut it back near where a bud could form......which, at that point, will be a "choose your bud" situation.

 

[butlern]

here it is.

 

[butlern]

Need to keep the apex in check! its very vigorous up there.

 

[LanceMac10]

HA!!!! Justa little!!

Nice!! Personally, at this point, in my climate, know what I mean....I would/might leave it alone until late summer/ early fall to do any more pruning. When I figure it wont grow new shoots.

Observe the tree and good luck!!

 

[Smoke]

You are correct. My reading was incomprehensive.
Thanks for your forbearance.

WTF, your not gonna call him ignorant, or he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. You gonna give him a pass and wimp out on us. Where's your antagonistic side when we need it...I mean people are dredging up year old threads to argue about!