Do established bonsai guidelines stifle creativity?

Anthony

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Well spoken Vance,

but remember, Japanese teachers teach by rote, and when other than Scholars
enter a historic practice, do we trust "gardeners " more than learned
men ?
Education makes a big difference for me.
Good Day
Anthony
 

bonsaichile

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You make my point exactly. I usually understand the reasons for the rules and I understand the ones you site. But the bottom line is this. If I didn't like that tree better with that rock in that corner I wouldn't have left it there. That may just be a function of being tired of how I have always had it, but I like it. That is why I asked the question which no one has addressed - Should I just not show a tree that willfully "breaks the rules". Most of my trees do. The majority of people who attend bonsai shows, who know nothing of bonsai rules, like trees that the experts do not. Is that a consideration at all?
Adair gave you specific aesthetic reasons that explain why the rock didnt work. The fact that people like it is a demagogical falacy. Many people also hang in their houses those posters of dogs playing pool. Popular approval does not make something art.
 

Gene Deci

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I would not brag about a tree that the experts don’t like.

Have you heard this line: "All generalizations are false." (Including that one?) The fact is there are pretty much always always exceptions. In any case, if you somehow think I was bragging about that larch, that was never my intention. It is a work in progress. And certainly trees with outhouses etc are something different altogether. At the Michigan All State Show you don't see that sort of thing. Once Andy Smith brought a tree to the Michigan show (ponderosa I think) that had a big owl in the branches. I don't remember who the judge was but I assure you he was nationally well respected. He said that was a no-no but he actually liked it. I didn't. The point is, if your criteria for judging trees is solely the rules, that is stifling. If it contains an element of personal preference - well you said it, There is no accounting for taste.
 

Anthony

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Judging towards what ???????????

Best informal, more informal than informal ?

Or a shape that satisfies 95 out of 100 viewers ?
 

Gene Deci

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Adair gave you specific aesthetic reasons that explain why the rock didnt work. The fact that people like it is a demagogical falacy. Many people also hang in their houses those posters of dogs playing pool. Popular approval does not make something art.

Now that is an interesting question. I once asked PhD psychologist with a world wide reputation what makes something art. He said psychologists, artists of all kinds, even philosophers, have debated that for years and there was no useful, widely accepted definition of art. What Adair gave me were reasons why it didn't work for him. And why so nasty to people who like pool playing dogs? How does that hurt you? When I was a teenager I had a velvet Elvis in my room. I lived through it.
 

brewmeister83

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To most of us Saikei implies a landscape.

So does Bonsai, you just have to use your imagination a little more with just a tree as opposed to a tree and a rock.

Don't the pictures you have posted confirm that?

You mean like the first minimalist example of a pine and a rock with just a little moss at the base surrounded by sand in a tray style pot to imply an ocean/island scene? How is that any different from a root-over-rock JBP in a moss topped pot which is also meant to convey a sense of an ocean-side cliff? Remember, we're dealing with metaphorical landscapes. As far as how metaphorical you want to go... well... lets just say that's another rabbit hole for another thread.

Don't know what the problem is here, I made a comment, you picked at it by saying Saikei was more than just one rock in a pot, I gave you evidence to the contrary (with pictures even! the forum gold standard!), should have ended there. Now you're trying to go off on a tangential argument about "landscape viewing" which is laughable considering the two artforms being discussed! Honestly, are you being argumentative on purpose?
 

Adair M

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Well spoken Vance,

but remember, Japanese teachers teach by rote, and when other than Scholars
enter a historic practice, do we trust "gardeners " more than learned
men ?
Education makes a big difference for me.
Good Day
Anthony
Anthony, what evidence do you have that says Japanese teachers teach by rote?

Have you any experience with Japanese teachers? Any?
 

rockm

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Adair gave you specific aesthetic reasons that explain why the rock didnt work. The fact that people like it is a demagogical falacy. Many people also hang in their houses those posters of dogs playing pool. Popular approval does not make something art.

this is not really accurate. Take my great uncle Norman Rockwell. For decades while he was alive, his illustrations for many magazines became icons of American culture. But he was NOT considered a true "artist" because his paintings and drawings were considered "illustrations" for commerce. His work was wildly popular. That is another reason the "artist" community didn't like him--he was considered too "pedestrian" for them. His work, they said, was too maudlin and sappy for a 'real' artist. Real artists, they said, have to work in the abstract or in images fraught with inner meaning that have to be carefully thought about by the viewer. The obvious themes (and some overlooked the deeper messages in some of his paintings) Rockwell used were hamhanded and appealed to broad emotion. Not subtle, no value.

Wasn't until very late in his career and now after his death that his paintings have become some of the most valuable and sought after on the market. People realized that the workmanship and composition and subject matter he used were all expertly put to work in his paintings. He understood how to get people's attention and say something they understood immediately. His work grabbed people by their lapels and their heart.

BTW, all this holds true for a number of artists, including Van Gogh.

Although there are a lot of bonsai out there that appeal to the masses, don't completely discount them. It's all well and good for a great bonsai to be appreciated by bonsai people, but I think sometimes it's better if it's appreciated by a wider circle of people.

Bonsai people are like magicians that understand how the "trick" is done and who pulls it off successfully and who is kind of slipshod.

The public isn't aware of trunk chops, ramification or branch placement per se( although a successful combination of those techniques makes a tree more visually appealing to humans--simple science). The public sees both more and less of what bonsai folk see in their trees. The general public is still in awe of the fact that "They're soooooo small. You must be an expert gardener with a lot of patience to do that." Well, no I just got a 150 year old tree from the ground and chopped the top out of it....;)
 
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Adair M

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At least one person understood!

Grimmy
I couldn’t figure out if it’s supposed to be a time machine or a shrinking machine. The trees are not similar enough for either.

If the two trees were these two, it would have worked better, but still, there was just too much clutter.

73D34E0D-1E10-43DE-A5D1-768315EB596D.jpeg

7EB7FDC5-29B6-48F8-BB46-C20750FA30C0.jpeg

And that background poster? What the heck?

I will say that the display was “art”. With bonsai trees as a component. But a bonsai Show is supposed to feature the trees, not the junk from your basement. It’s just the wrong venue. I think that display is perfectly suited for an “Art Festival”. But not a bonsai show whose primary purpose is to feature trees in their winter images.

Adam Lavigne shied a tree on a rusted metal milk crate. It’s actually a pretty nice tree. Potted too high, but whatever... But you don’t see the tree. All you see is the rusted milk crate.

415C0FEC-6322-4A1D-8EAB-1D6785FCDD4D.jpeg
 

coh

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There’s no accounting for taste!

At the Carolina Expo Show, there’s a People’s Choice award. Often a tree that has a club house tree house in the branches, or an outhouse building or something like that will win the People’s Choice. Not always, but it happens. But the reason a display like that wins is because of the clubhouse in the tree. NOT because of the tree. The tree might be spectacular, deserving of an award, but because of the clubhouse, it’s the clubhouse that gets the attention.

Lots of time the general public doesn’t know what they’re looking at.

And sometimes they may choose something that’s “different” than the others, thinking that it’s creative, when it’s just poorly done.

This is actually very common in the arts. When I was painting semi-professionally (as in, not working a regular job but occasionally selling some of my paintings :) ) I noticed this at art shows all the time. When shows were both professionally judged and also had a "people's choice" award, the people's choice award was usually very different than what the judge chose. Similarly, the paintings that the other artists gravitated to were more likely to be the ones chosen by the judge. You know, the paintings that were "technically" good - good edge work (variety of soft and hard edges), muted colors, nice composition. The public often chose paintings that looked more like photographs - all hard edges, bold coloring, subject right in the center. Or, they chose a painting because it had their favorite color in it, or it matched their couch, or something like that.

Usually the work that was further outside the guidelines didn't get chosen by either the judge or the public, unless the judge was more of a "modern art" type. But the other artists would gather around it and mutter stuff like "interesting..."

Anyway...
 

brewmeister83

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The general public is still in awe of the fact that "They're soooooo small. You must be an expert gardener with a lot of patience to do that." Well, no I just got a 150 year old tree from the ground and chopped the top out of it....;)

As a side note/tangent - I literally had someone aghast when they found out the 7 ft larch I was buying was going to end up an 18 inch bonsai. "You're going to cut that much off of it?" they said. I said "how else do I make it small enough to be a bonsai?" I literally saw the gears turning in her head before the look of enlightenment came over her - "so all bonsai arn't grown from seed in a small pot?" I love the look of someones mind being blown when they learn something new. I know I've had that look myself many many times while learning bonsai


I will say that the display was “art”. With bonsai trees as a component. But a bonsai Show is supposed to feature the trees, not the junk from your basement. It’s just the wrong venue. I think that display is perfectly suited for an “Art Festival”. But not a bonsai show whose primary purpose is to feature trees in their winter images.

Oh *%$#!, Duck and cover everyone! We've gone from the "Bonsai Guidelines" thread to the "What is Art" thread!
 

Adair M

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As a side note/tangent - I literally had someone aghast when they found out the 7 ft larch I was buying was going to end up an 18 inch bonsai. "You're going to cut that much off of it?" they said. I said "how else do I make it small enough to be a bonsai?" I literally saw the gears turning in her head before the look of enlightenment came over her - "so all bonsai arn't grown from seed in a small pot?" I love the look of someones mind being blown when they learn something new. I know I've had that look myself many many times while learning bonsai




Oh *%$#!, Duck and cover everyone! We've gone from the "Bonsai Guidelines" thread to the "What is Art" thread!
No, we have not gone to the “what is art” rabbit hole. I’m just saying that that display was not appropriate for that show.
 

brewmeister83

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No, we have not gone to the “what is art” rabbit hole. I’m just saying that that display was not appropriate for that show.

My bad, seeing a modern non-traditional display must have triggered a flashback, we lost a lot of good men in that thread...
 

Anthony

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Sifu,[ Adair ]

through the aid of the Japanese Embassy, we were put in touch with
the Nippon Bonsai society in 1987.
So yes, we have had the ears and eyes of both Japanese and Chinese
masters.
But I do remember telling you this a while ago.

By the way don't you learn by rote as well ?
Good Day
Slow student.
Anthony

* just in case you didn't realise, new natives requires experimentation
and Design requires new ideas.
So we don't learn by rote.

Remember the J.b.pine in the West Indies, has no teacher.
Just lots of suggestions and then experimentation.
 

rockm

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As a side note/tangent - I literally had someone aghast when they found out the 7 ft larch I was buying was going to end up an 18 inch bonsai. "You're going to cut that much off of it?" they said. I said "how else do I make it small enough to be a bonsai?" I literally saw the gears turning in her head before the look of enlightenment came over her - "so all bonsai arn't grown from seed in a small pot?" I love the look of someones mind being blown when they learn something new. I know I've had that look myself many many times while learning bonsai




Oh *%$#!, Duck and cover everyone! We've gone from the "Bonsai Guidelines" thread to the "What is Art" thread!
Not really. I pointed to Rockwell's painting because he harnessed solid artistic theory, practice and execution. It other words, he understood the basics and used them skillfully. Understanding the "rules" as tools can get you past that authoritarian ring that "rules" carry. I think the title "The Rules," automatically makes people want to rebel and not see them for what they are.
 

Adair M

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Sifu,[ Adair ]

through the aid of the Japanese Embassy, we were put in touch with
the Nippon Bonsai society in 1987.
So yes, we have had the ears and eyes of both Japanese and Chinese
masters.
But I do remember telling you this a while ago.

By the way don't you learn by rote as well ?
Good Day
Slow student.
Anthony

* just in case you didn't realise, new natives requires experimentation
and Design requires new ideas.
So we don't learn by rote.

Remember the J.b.pine in the West Indies, has no teacher.
Just lots of suggestions and then experimentation.
Anthony, learning by rote, is memorization, like learning the multiplication tables.

Learning to wire is learning a diagram, then learning how to apply that diagram to the branch structure you are working on. After a while, with sufficient practice, you don’t have to “think” about it, it comes “naturally”. Your eye sees the pattern, your hand have the muscle memory to apply the wire correctly and efficiently. The same way, every time.

The next few paragraphs are NOT about bonsai, lol!!!


In my youth, I played tennis. I was good enough to play at the collegiate level. I practiced, practiced, practiced. So that when I was in a match, I didn’t think about, “see the ball, turn, run to where the ball is going to be, get your racket back, shift your weight as you hit, follow thru, move back to the center of the court...”. No, that stuff became automatic. Instead, I could concentrate on stuff like, “move him to the far side of the court, he’s likely to return cross court, next shot, hit down the line, rush net, be ready to volley for winner...”

In other words, once I had solid mechanics, I could concentrate on strategy. At that level, the game changes from who has the better mechanics to a mental battle. Who wants to win more. How to recognize your opponents weaknesses and how to best take advantage of them.

I’ll give you an example: one guy I played had a very strong forehand. His back hand wasn’t weak, but it wasn’t nearly as powerful as his forehand. He could blast shots by you with that forehand.

So, I knew I couldn’t trade shots with him. My strategy became this: I hit every ball to his backhand side. He ran me all over the court with backhand shots both down the line and crosscourt. I kept him pinned in his backhand corner. Points lasted a long time, with many long rallys. He started becoming frustrated, occasionally running around his backhand in order to hit a forehand. This opened up the court so I could hit a winner into to open court! So, he gave up on that, and resigned himself to a backhand battle. So, then I could do this: after hitting about 15 to 20 shots to his backhand, I would hit one wide to his forehand! He would be so happy to get a chance to hit a forehand, he’d over hit! Sending it out!

I beat him 6-2, 6-2. In a match that took 2 hours. Usually, that lopsided a score would be done in about 45 minutes! But I was playing a chess match. He was a “stronger” player than I was. I couldn’t out hit him. But I won. Dominated, actually.

Not once did I think about the mechanics of what I was doing. Body memory, yes. By rote? I don’t think so.

Back to bonsai.

Yes, the Japanese Masters want their apprentices to get so good at the menial tasks they don’t have to think about them. Just do them. This frees the brain to think about design, style, movement, character, future development, etc.
 

Anthony

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Trouble is Sifu,
the design is weak and the trees look like mutations of
other Bonsai.
Good Day
Anthony

* Yes, I played Chess.
I still think in x moves ahead,
 

Adair M

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Trouble is Sifu,
the design is weak and the trees look like mutations of
other Bonsai.
Good Day
Anthony

* Yes, I played Chess.
I still think in x moves ahead,
Chess is 100% mental. Bonsai requires certain physical skills to be used before the intellect can be used effectively.

If you want to move a branch, your brain can’t do it without applying wire, or a guy wire, or applying a wedge, or something.
 
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