All aboard the Mugo train!

cishepard

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My local McDonalds is re-landscaping and ripped this out - assuming it’s a Mugo? Not much of a rootball and I rushed it home in the rain to pot before I got a pic. Another one coming when they get to the next section. I hope they live. I’m keeping it protected - PacNW mild winters. Any other advice for a beginner with these? Let it rest for a year before anything else?
 

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Wires_Guy_wires

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@cishepard Listen to Vance, because he is always right about these pines. Someone compiled his tips on a page in the 'resources' part of the forum. Right there https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/compiled-vance-wood-on-mugo-pines.23/
It looks like a mughus variety of mugo pine. The original one from the alps.
I think it's fairly safe to say: let it rest for two years before anything else. I'm having a hard time with that. But if you don't, that extra year will return the favor.
 

Vance Wood

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@cishepard Listen to Vance, because he is always right about these pines. Someone compiled his tips on a page in the 'resources' part of the forum. Right there https://www.bonsainut.com/resources/compiled-vance-wood-on-mugo-pines.23/
It looks like a mughus variety of mugo pine. The original one from the alps.
I think it's fairly safe to say: let it rest for two years before anything else. I'm having a hard time with that. But if you don't, that extra year will return the favor.
Mugos will fool with your head. They are capable of taking all manner of abuse at one time and not even show evidence of stress but;----do something else just a few months latter and you might lose the tree admist the alarming revelation that the tree is dying. I have seriously pruned, wired, and reduced the roots in the middle of the summer at the same time to the same tree and not lost them. They acted as though nothing ever happened. In fact many of them seemed to respond favorably with all kinds of new growth, great color and roots out the bottom of the pot.
 

cishepard

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Thanks for the link to the Mugo paper ... I will study and hope for the best. My trees don’t look in the best shape as they were living under some very over grown shrubbery. Since I already essentially bare rooted them, I’ll wait. Patiently. : )
 

Vance Wood

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Thanks for the link to the Mugo paper ... I will study and hope for the best. My trees don’t look in the best shape as they were living under some very over grown shrubbery. Since I already essentially bare rooted them, I’ll wait. Patiently. : )
It would be best to leave them alone to gain strength for a couple of years before executing any design plans.
 

sorce

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So much want to liberate this from the home Depot parking lot. Going to look into the city maintenance crew and see who I need to get the okay from. It's been beat up by the snowplow a time or two. And one of the main trunks is dead. There is also another one in the same lot which is dead, so I'm hoping that's some leverage for them to let me dig this beast.

You're probly going to find them surface roots running far, wide, and shallow in that mulch like I did. Keep em! Seems those are neccesary to sustain it for the transplant. If I ever dug one again I'll be wrapping them up nice and snug.. All 6-10ft of em.

Most of the interior mass is useless contorted BS the pot shape of the size it was planted. ...after the good surface roots are bundled up...I bet you can almost pluck the old pot shape mass right up out the old hole.

I'm crazy pissed I dogged mine....
I know those surface roots could have kept mine alive. Borers or not.

GTB!

Sorce
 

Soldano666

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You're probly going to find them surface roots running far, wide, and shallow in that mulch wrapping them up nice and snug.. All 6-10ft of em.
...after the good surface roots are bundled up...I bet you can almost pluck the old pot shape mass right up out the old hole.

.

GTB!

Sorce
Solid advice, thanks bud.
 

Vance Wood

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I used to think that removing a branch and leaving a stub would accomplish this but it seems the technique us not 100% fool proof. If you are removing a large branch that is at the bottom of a live vain and there is nothing above it on the same vain you will probably lose the associated roots. You might drastically reduce the branch without removing all the growth and see where that takes you.
 

Japonicus

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Got another ticket today. Last ticket I cut in half and made a single and possible forest from.
DSC_2646.JPGDSC_2647.JPG
This one is a Pinus mugo Congesta on it's own roots, said to be 6 years old.
A rarity as I cannot find much information on it other than what Vance and I found
that it is a very slow dwarf. Other than that, "we shall see".
Just unpacked and a hair do like it's been wearing a toboggan on it's head all the way from Washington.
Will get it into my bonsai cave tomorrow for Wintering.
 

Vance Wood

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Beginner stock, picked these up last year on deep discount from a big box store. They all begin their tortur... erm, training this year, bwaaa ha ha haaaaa!
Big one's a mughus, the smaller ones are all pumilio...
View attachment 73311
No wonder I can't find Mugos anymore, you have them all. LOL
 

Vance Wood

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You guys make my day. I remember when all I got for my efforts was derision, now every body seems to have one and that makes me happy. Some day all of these nursery Mugos are going to come into their own. If I was a young man I would get some property and start a nursery growing lots of Mugos.
 

Vance Wood

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Critical information about the dwarf cultivarss: It seems that they do not take kindly to drastic pruning. I'm not telling you what to do but my plan is to keep my pruning to doing it in stages at first, until I see how it is going to respond. First I would remove all growth forming in the crotches of the branches, the upward growing branches and the down ward growing branches. I would then remove the little piddly branches that I know will never make a bonsai then let the tree rest till I see what the tree says about what I did. Next stage will be to consider how the tree is growing and starting to consider style options. Please do yourself a favor: Do not plan to do this or that or anything else that is not indicated by where the tree is going.
 

Japonicus

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Do not plan to do this or that or anything else that is not indicated by where the tree is going.
This is a complex full course meal you present Vance.

Being how it was shipped out of its' pot...
...any suggestions on current care of this (for me) problem???

Then, come Spring...todays actions should cover Spring so I do nothing else, or,
or what would you do I should ask?
 

Vance Wood

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This is a complex full course meal you present Vance.

Being how it was shipped out of its' pot...
...any suggestions on current care of this (for me) problem???

Then, come Spring...todays actions should cover Spring so I do nothing else, or,
or what would you do I should ask?
You can remove "junk" and the weak "piddly" stuff with no consequences. Other than that, you have to get the tree stabilized and set so that the wind does not blow the tree from its pot. Have you considered the soil you plan on putting it in? It looks to me that there is a good deal of organics in its current soil mix, something some would tell you to get rid of. With Mugo Pines one third of your soil mix should be organic, I prefer composted Pine bark mulch, often sold as garden mulch. You need a calcined clay component like Turface, or acadama, or any one of half a dozen alternatives, and a grit element like coarse #2 or #3 sand blasting sand or swimming pool filter sand or small red lava gravel or a combination of all of the above. Mugos do seem to like the Pine Bark Mulch. The Pine bark provides a medium for beneficial fungi and bacteria, the grit elements provide for drainage and the clay elements provide for a balance in PH and fertilizer retention called the cation exchange capacity. Granted you are not going to be able to replace all of the curnet soil without risking the tree's health but to be certain you should make sure what you do add is compatible with what is there.
 

Japonicus

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You can remove "junk" and the weak "piddly" stuff with no consequences. Other than that, you have to get the tree stabilized and set so that the wind does not blow the tree from its pot. Have you considered the soil you plan on putting it in? It looks to me that there is a good deal of organics in its current soil mix, something some would tell you to get rid of. With Mugo Pines one third of your soil mix should be organic, I prefer composted Pine bark mulch, often sold as garden mulch. You need a calcined clay component like Turface, or acadama, or any one of half a dozen alternatives, and a grit element like coarse #2 or #3 sand blasting sand or swimming pool filter sand or small red lava gravel or a combination of all of the above. Mugos do seem to like the Pine Bark Mulch. The Pine bark provides a medium for beneficial fungi and bacteria, the grit elements provide for drainage and the clay elements provide for a balance in PH and fertilizer retention called the cation exchange capacity. Granted you are not going to be able to replace all of the curnet soil without risking the tree's health but to be certain you should make sure what you do add is compatible with what is there.
No I had not considered the soil I planned on putting it in Vance,
because I had no idea the guy was going to remove the tree from its' pot/can.
I only had concerns about coming from Zone 8a to 6a-b. Now I'm forced to do something.
I've never potted up any outdoor plants in Winter. Though we're heading for a 60 + º rebound in temps this weekend
the temps are only a comfort thing for me, and a good temperature for me to deal with this.
I just have no pine bark mulch, but do have Douglas fir bark fines. Will check Lowes stock tomorrow.
Hadn't planned on any action on this tree this year other than cleaning underneath branches.

What I meant about a complex full course meal you presented, was the cornucopia of wisdom in that nutshell.
Do not plan to do this or that or anything else that is not indicated by where the tree is going.
There's a whole book or two behind those words ;)
 

Vance Wood

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No I had not considered the soil I planned on putting it in Vance,
because I had no idea the guy was going to remove the tree from its' pot/can.
I only had concerns about coming from Zone 8a to 6a-b. Now I'm forced to do something.
I've never potted up any outdoor plants in Winter. Though we're heading for a 60 + º rebound in temps this weekend
the temps are only a comfort thing for me, and a good temperature for me to deal with this.
I just have no pine bark mulch, but do have Douglas fir bark fines. Will check Lowes stock tomorrow.
Hadn't planned on any action on this tree this year other than cleaning underneath branches.

What I meant about a complex full course meal you presented, was the cornucopia of wisdom in that nutshell.

There's a whole book or two behind those words ;)
Thank You?? This is a really difficult topic/point I have been trying to get accros over the last couple of years. I keep hearing people say "I'm going to make a cascade out of my Mugo, or a wind swept or a broom or a blah blah blah." like the tree is a cake mix, just add milk and eggs. This approach usually leads to artistic failure due to the fact the artist fails to recognize the finer points already contained in the tree. Instead they try to force the tree to do something the tree may not be heading toward. My approach is to look deeper into the tree and trying to see the spirit that is hiding in there, if that makes any sense to anyone. ----see my point?

In making decisions about the style of a tree on some superficial traits like several trunks, or a lot of branches, or stuff laying on the ground or going in one direction will usually yield superficial bonsai that artistically never work. You need to study the trunk and its base or Nebari. You need to find a direction the art is going from the ground up because in nature that is the direction of any tree. Nature does not decide what the tree is going to look like, nature just pounds on the tree and the tree adapts to the punishment. That is the approach you should adapt in your approach to the tree; and still I have not quite described the heart of the issue because maybe I do not fully understand.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Thank You?? This is a really difficult topic/point I have been trying to get accros over the last couple of years. I keep hearing people say "I'm going to make a cascade out of my Mugo, or a wind swept or a broom or a blah blah blah." like the tree is a cake mix, just add milk and eggs. This approach usually leads to artistic failure due to the fact the artist fails to recognize the finer points already contained in the tree. Instead they try to force the tree to do something the tree may not be heading toward. My approach is to look deeper into the tree and trying to see the spirit that is hiding in there, if that makes any sense to anyone. ----see my point?

In making decisions about the style of a tree on some superficial traits like several trunks, or a lot of branches, or stuff laying on the ground or going in one direction will usually yield superficial bonsai that artistically never work. You need to study the trunk and its base or Nebari. You need to find a direction the art is going from the ground up because in nature that is the direction of any tree. Nature does not decide what the tree is going to look like, nature just pounds on the tree and the tree adapts to the punishment. That is the approach you should adapt in your approach to the tree; and still I have not quite described the heart of the issue because maybe I do not fully understand.

I think a large part of the 'wanting to set a design' originates from the appeal of mugo's. They give little to fantasize about because they almost always have a certain look that could fit to a general style direction.
Every mugo I have, 'spoke to me' after buying them; they had a certain attribute that made my unexperienced ass lean immediately in one direction. And then we just tend to go with that safe option because it doesn't ask a lot of mental power. And it allows us to stay within our safe gut feeling.
The more we invest in a bad decision, the harder it gets to admit it and move away from that decision. (This is so common in humans that scientist call it choice-supportive bias)
After a while, we find out that the design wasn't that ideal for the long term, then we call you for help and apologize for not listening to your advice in the first place. I'm guilty as charged on at least 1 of my 6 mugos.
 

Vance Wood

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I think a large part of the 'wanting to set a design' originates from the appeal of mugo's. They give little to fantasize about because they almost always have a certain look that could fit to a general style direction.
Every mugo I have, 'spoke to me' after buying them; they had a certain attribute that made my unexperienced ass lean immediately in one direction. And then we just tend to go with that safe option because it doesn't ask a lot of mental power. And it allows us to stay within our safe gut feeling.
The more we invest in a bad decision, the harder it gets to admit it and move away from that decision. (This is so common in humans that scientist call it choice-supportive bias)
After a while, we find out that the design wasn't that ideal for the long term, then we call you for help and apologize for not listening to your advice in the first place. I'm guilty as charged on at least 1 of my 6 mugos.
Some people never get to that ephinay, they just continue in what they were doing. I can show you several examples on Youtube where a good design is sitting right there in front of the artist but they don't see it. They just continue to reenforce their original bad design as though that is the best this tree could be. I don't mean to suggest that I am the great Karnack of bonsai, and what I think makes a difference but it is an educated opinion from one who understands they don't know everything and is willing to change and continue to grow.
 
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