Real hedging and development the Smoke way!!!

[Anthony]

Ah, but do you see tapering in the branches as
they go up the tree?

As in first branch thickest and say about 1/3 of the trunk.
Second branch 1/4 and so on.
Or are they all the same thickness ?

Do mature trees grow like that ?
Observe Nature, what do you see ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[just.wing.it]

I appreciate you putting this thread together @Smoke

I have 2 questions....
About how many months is your growing season?

How do you fertilize?......type of fert and when you apply it.

 

[Smoke]

I appreciate you putting this thread together @Smoke

I have 2 questions....
About how many months is your growing season?

How do you fertilize?......type of fert and when you apply it.

Thank you for asking a courteous question. I hate smart ass replies when all they want to do is cause problems or argue.. If you think I'm a hack start your own thread. That's what I did.

My growing season is long....BUT, that is a big But. It may be long but it is short in actual growing time. While it may be 9 months long I don't get the whole thing. My plants go into Summer-winter. They are not growing right now. They are dormant. Dormant from the heat. I may get a few shoots on a maple pop a couple buds right now, but for the most part June July and August are nothing months to me. I get about March April and May to hedge well. Then rest time for three months and then I get a spring push again around Sept 5th. That lasts until about Nov. 15th. Then Fall starts to set in. My winter is Dec, Jan, Feb. I start repotting end of Jan. and buds are popping middle of Feb.

For fertilizer, I inject the nine growing months. Even in winter. I don't fertilize June July or August. Just too hot here. I use Grow More 100% cold water soluble fertilizer with all trace minerals. The best commercial fertilizer on the market. Used by virtually every golf course and most growers in California on injector watering systems, which most are now. Even stone fruits and nut crops are water injected with fertiliser here.



I use a hose end injector like this at 17/1 dilution. I siphon the dilute fertilizer out of a five gallon bucket I mix about every 5 days.



Driving around the San Joaquin Valley one will see almost every ranch with an injector system like this near a road for service.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I do this part continually thru July via hedging the canopy. This keeps internodes small, and keeps buds in a constant state of activity. Throw "harden off" out of the vocabulary, it is a gardening term from a century ago that has no meaning in this method. Keep in mind this is for broadleaf trees that bud easily not conifers that would die a day later if you did this.



This part of your quote is done in fall the first week after leaf fall. I set a long board between two ladders and stack up six or seven trees on the board and just go thru them like an assembly line and prune out what I don't want. I can do this very quickly. I need to, just in maples I will have about 50 to do. Not counting elms, hornbeams, and zelcova.

With hedging it is possible and you will, get small knuckles at the ends of some branches. this is because it gets pruned back to the same spot continually. But, what you are doing is allowing everything else to grow to that spot and even out the exterior of the canopy and look equal. In the fall, just cut the knuckle back half an inch shorter than the outline and allow it to get rehedged the following year. Eventually it all evens out and you can keep it in that shape. In fact by that time the tree will have developed a memory and actually doesn't seem to grow much out of the shape.

I hope this all makes sense.

I think I lost a whole season on my maples by not using this method.

 

[Fabledabel]

I think I lost a whole season on my maples by not using this method.

I wouldn't worry. This is by no means the only, nor best method to develop a maple.

 

[AZbonsai]

@Smoke I have a question as well. Is there a point in time that you look at the ramification that you have created with the hedging process and decide you do not like the direction that it is headed in and cut that section out?

 

[Smoke]

@Smoke I have a question as well. Is there a point in time that you look at the ramification that you have created with the hedging process and decide you do not like the direction that it is headed in and cut that section out?

I think you and a lot of people here are confused about hedging a tree.

Just what exactly do you think it is? Based on your question I don't see how that question works????


This is the best insight I can give. I have no idea why Walter does what he does. I don't care what Walter does cause I don't work with him, and he does not come to my house to work here. That is why I don't care what Ryan does or what Boon does, I do what Al does. The trees fall where they may. Like um or hate um it makes no difference to me. I offer what "I" do here as "A" way to get to an end. My means justifies my end. It may not work for others. It may work well for others. Either way it's your choice.

I have hot springs here, so warm that plants explode in Feb/March. There are people from the East that wouldn't have a clue how to handle a maple here in Spring. On the other hand I would probably shoot myself in the head from boredom waiting for bud break in Connecticut.

Because trees explode so fast here my energy must be spent on reigning in my plants. I don't have the luxury to wait until growth hardens off to prune. If I waited that long some of my large maples would look like a VW. I hedge plants in an effort to control internode growth. I have lots of shohin trees, most of them maples. If I don't cut them weekly or more all I have built will be gone in a couple months of neglect.

An example.
Just pulled this off the bench. Getting a little shaggy. Thats why I chose it. You got me off my ass to fix a tree. The leaves have grown beyond my outline. But because of the way I trained it by hedging it.....



....it only takes a minute to get it ready for a show on a new Keppler stand. There is nothing I would remove. Ever.

 

[AZbonsai]

Got it! Thanks.

 

[Wilson]

In the 3 years I have enjoyed this site, Al's threads are always very well presented. I can't say I have ever looked at one of his trees and thought, "oh that's no good!"

 

[0soyoung]

I can't say I have ever looked at one of his trees and thought, "oh that's no good!"

I can, but I think that is to his credit.

 

[just.wing.it]

Thank you for asking a courteous question. I hate smart ass replies when all they want to do is cause problems or argue.. If you think I'm a hack start your own thread. That's what I did.

My growing season is long....BUT, that is a big But. It may be long but it is short in actual growing time. While it may be 9 months long I don't get the whole thing. My plants go into Summer-winter. They are not growing right now. They are dormant. Dormant from the heat. I may get a few shoots on a maple pop a couple buds right now, but for the most part June July and August are nothing months to me. I get about March April and May to hedge well. Then rest time for three months and then I get a spring push again around Sept 5th. That lasts until about Nov. 15th. Then Fall starts to set in. My winter is Dec, Jan, Feb. I start repotting end of Jan. and buds are popping middle of Feb.

For fertilizer, I inject the nine growing months. Even in winter. I don't fertilize June July or August. Just too hot here. I use Grow More 100% cold water soluble fertilizer with all trace minerals. The best commercial fertilizer on the market. Used by virtually every golf course and most growers in California on injector watering systems, which most are now. Even stone fruits and nut crops are water injected with fertiliser here.

View attachment 251107

I use a hose end injector like this at 17/1 dilution. I siphon the dilute fertilizer out of a five gallon bucket I mix about every 5 days.

View attachment 251108

Driving around the San Joaquin Valley one will see almost every ranch with an injector system like this near a road for service.

View attachment 251112View attachment 251109View attachment 251110View attachment 251111

Awesome, thanks sir!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Hey Al, do you treat your water at all (aside from the fertilizer injection)? Or do you just use the same crappy water out of the tap as the rest of us?

 

[Smoke]

Hey Al, do you treat your water at all (aside from the fertilizer injection)? Or do you just use the same crappy water out of the tap as the rest of us?

I use it right out of the tap. For a couple decades I noticed that my pots would turn white, and I mean they looked like seagulls had shit on them for a month. Over the last couple years I have not noticed the tremendous calcium buildup I used to get. The city may be treating the water...I have no idea. I just know that my pots are clean now and I don't have to go out there and ruin them with a pumice stone like I used to.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I noticed something was off on those roots I’m glad I noticed it before you mentioned it.
I can honestly see how hedging would work with ficus also. My preferred species.
Thank you for sharing.
I always learn something from your posts.

 

[j evans]

Thank you for your time and effort, it is greatly appreciated. I wish I could get a tree this good to visit me let alone stay.

 

[Johnnyd]

I have decided that the best way to explain this kind of stuff is to see it develop over a couple years. I will explain my method thru pictures on this kiyohime maple. The method will work for any size tree. This just happens to be a shohin size tree.

Tree as purchased
The tree was purchased at a nursery in Dec. of 2016.

View attachment 250983

The tree was cut back to the first node on each branch. I was pretty happy with what I had.

View attachment 250984

On further evaluation I decided that I did not wish to build the tree with the twigs starting so far from the trunk. I just felt it would not look good so I cut everything off. Brave....The grafting tape can be seen here.

View attachment 250985

In Spring of 2018 it was repotted and the roots checked.
In August of 2018 it had its first hedging appointment.

View attachment 250986

The task completed for now. If one looks closely you can see the cuts right thru leaves and everything. I am just pruning for a broom shape.

View attachment 250987

In Nov. of 2018 the tree was ready for another hedge job.

View attachment 250988


View attachment 250989

The tree in Spring 2019

View attachment 250990

Thanks for sharing your methods Al!
Are you using the grafting tape to prevent unwanted buds ? I have a few similar cultivars that backlbud everywhere.

 

[JudyB]

Thank you for asking a courteous question. I hate smart ass replies when all they want to do is cause problems or argue.. If you think I'm a hack start your own thread. That's what I did.

My growing season is long....BUT, that is a big But. It may be long but it is short in actual growing time. While it may be 9 months long I don't get the whole thing. My plants go into Summer-winter. They are not growing right now. They are dormant. Dormant from the heat. I may get a few shoots on a maple pop a couple buds right now, but for the most part June July and August are nothing months to me. I get about March April and May to hedge well. Then rest time for three months and then I get a spring push again around Sept 5th. That lasts until about Nov. 15th. Then Fall starts to set in. My winter is Dec, Jan, Feb. I start repotting end of Jan. and buds are popping middle of Feb.

For fertilizer, I inject the nine growing months. Even in winter. I don't fertilize June July or August. Just too hot here. I use Grow More 100% cold water soluble fertilizer with all trace minerals. The best commercial fertilizer on the market. Used by virtually every golf course and most growers in California on injector watering systems, which most are now. Even stone fruits and nut crops are water injected with fertiliser here.

View attachment 251107

I use a hose end injector like this at 17/1 dilution. I siphon the dilute fertilizer out of a five gallon bucket I mix about every 5 days.

View attachment 251108

Driving around the San Joaquin Valley one will see almost every ranch with an injector system like this near a road for service.

View attachment 251112View attachment 251109View attachment 251110View attachment 251111

Looking at this fertilizer, could it be mixed in a spot sprayer tank and used, or does it need to be run thru an injector system to get it to mix correctly? Also I can't tell what the nitrogen component is from, I'm assuming this is not considered organic, (not that I have a problem with that) but I'd like to know what is in this and can't find the info. Thanks! Looking for alternatives for next year possibly for my water based fert.

 

[Colorado]

@Smoke why doesn’t the “Smoke Way” produce trees that are even remotely comparable in quality to the “Walter Pall Method” of hedging?

 

[Smoke]

Looking at this fertilizer, could it be mixed in a spot sprayer tank and used, or does it need to be run thru an injector system to get it to mix correctly? Also I can't tell what the nitrogen component is from, I'm assuming this is not considered organic, (not that I have a problem with that) but I'd like to know what is in this and can't find the info. Thanks! Looking for alternatives for next year possibly for my water based fert.

Most all fertilizer is in a sense organic, in that most of it needs microbial work done to it to work. Unless fertilizer is in the form of a nitrate, it is of no use to the plant. It can't take it up. Whether the nitrate is supplied my animal waste or chemicals from the earth, they both work the same way.
This fertilizer is;
3.90% ammoniacal nitrogen
5.90% nitrate nitrogen
10.20% urea nitrogen

ammoniacal is good and requires microbial breakdown but this happens pretty fast and is used up quickly
nitrate is used by the plant immediately
Urea is good because it lasts a long time breaking up slowly and releasing as it breaks down.

Urea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JudyB]

View attachment 251924
[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I will try this next season.