Late summer repotting
- Thread starter Walter Pall
- Start date
wireme
Masterpiece
@sorce
I think @0soyoung was suggesting to approach it 0soscientifically, which is in fact my usual approach. I did as many tests this year as I could with cuttings, for example.
at the moment, the problem that I have with 'late-summer repotting' is that none of the individuals who are successfully doing it themselves are in agreement about the procedure, purpose, or its limitations, as @Brian Van Fleet highlighted above. It is not as though they disagree trivially about what soil to use during a late-summer repotting. Rather, they disagree fundamentally about its purpose, and about what can be done to the roots of the tree. For this reason, it stands out to me that nobody is really addressing the development stages head on, which is what concerns most of us!
I attached 3 photos, as examples of 3 hypothetical 'stages' of nebari development. I'm going to use maples because that's what I know.
regardless of the species, a lot of us have trees in between stages 1 and 2, and want to get to something like stage 3. If somebody wants to get to stage 3, should one repot in late summer for the tree's entire life starting from stage 1? If the answer is yes, should we follow @Walter Pall and avoid pruning a single root; OR, can we do major work like a few others are suggesting? Yes, I get that I can test and see what works for me, but see the bigger issue, below.
As I explained before (see link below), @Walter Pall has repeatedly presented his version of late summer repotting in opposition to "maintream thinking", the "bonsai world", or what "some japanese gardener" does. But does late-summer repotting actually replace spring repotting? Walter Pall keeps saying it does, but he has yet to explain how one gets from stage 1 to stage 3 by repotting in late summer and not touching the roots! Walter just usually starts at stage 3.
In the absence of such an explanation, it looks a lot like 'late-summer repotting' does not oppose or replace spring repotting. Rather, 'late-summer repotting' is best used after several decades of 'maintream repotting'.
With very few exceptions, nobody on this forum has trees as developed as Walter's. If we all start late-summer repotting and stop touching the roots like @Walter Pall implies when he sets late-summer repotting in opposition to spring repotting, the quality bonsai is going to decline very quickly except for those of us starting with 60 year old maples and 100 year old yamadori... unless somebody can explain how one gets from stage 1 to stage 3 by repotting in late summer without ever touching the roots...
European Hornbeam #13
I almost never bareroot anything. I try to repot only when I really have to. When I repot I try to disturb the root ball as little as possible. This applies to trees in all stages of development. There are hundreds of pictures on the net where I work with very raw material in a very similar...www.bonsainut.com
I’ll go out on a limb here and suggest that Walter believes this is the best time to repot spruce (possibly others) period. When he says not to cut roots or branches on old trees like this that would also apply to a spring repot of an old conifer (not young vigourous trees). I can only assume that a young spruce in development would get the appropriate rootwork done if repotted now. I don’t believe he is saying not to prune live roots because it’s a summer repot but just to avoid it when possible always, (again, old collected trees).So, if you have to prune the roots, you have to prune the roots, spring or summer won’t change that. If this is the best time to do what you’ve gotta do then you then do it. The forecast and the amount of available time until freezing weather is probably the biggest seasonal precautions. Nothing but stupid hot and dry for me here now, then it will snow. I’ll be waiting till spring myself.
Igor. T. Ljubek
Yamadori
What do you think about late summer collecting from nature? I have an opportunity to dig up two or three nice oaks (quercus robur/quercus petraea) and a field maple (acer campestre) in next few weeks. The trees are 15 + years old imo. My climate is not much different from Walter's climate, so maybe i could try at least with one of these trees, the one with biggest canopy? I mean if you (Walter) believe that late summer is best time for repotting, what do you think about late summer collecting then?
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I know what you mean.
Going back and reading this....
That's the same way I feel about folks who use spring repotting!
What I don't fear is the heat, with appropriate humidity, so I believe Alabama can repot in late summer, where Nevada or Colorado maybe different.
One Thing I noticed is these weeds we have here, were just about to flower here before I went to SCarolina. I noted they will probly have ripe berries when we got back.
Saw the same ones out there at the same stage of flower, only friggin huge!
So the early growing season gets them bigger, but the flowers, based of sun position, come relatively the same.
I though about how that relates to potting at the time. Where @Brian Van Fleet , correct me if I'm wrong, views the calander as ...
How to put, starting at the same point..
It doesn't. The middle is the same point. And the outsides extend further.
Summer solstice is summer solstice I mean.
So repotting Mugo in summer for us isn't the same as Spring down there is what I'm saying.
Sorce
Going back and reading this....
That's the same way I feel about folks who use spring repotting!
What I don't fear is the heat, with appropriate humidity, so I believe Alabama can repot in late summer, where Nevada or Colorado maybe different.
One Thing I noticed is these weeds we have here, were just about to flower here before I went to SCarolina. I noted they will probly have ripe berries when we got back.
Saw the same ones out there at the same stage of flower, only friggin huge!
So the early growing season gets them bigger, but the flowers, based of sun position, come relatively the same.
I though about how that relates to potting at the time. Where @Brian Van Fleet , correct me if I'm wrong, views the calander as ...
How to put, starting at the same point..
It doesn't. The middle is the same point. And the outsides extend further.
Summer solstice is summer solstice I mean.
So repotting Mugo in summer for us isn't the same as Spring down there is what I'm saying.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Cosmos
Shohin
There’s no big secret there: if your climate is not extreme in the summer (you seem to suggest Alabama climate is, I wouldn’t know), you have another window to repot in the second half of the summer because that is the period of year where there is maximum root growth, not spring. This is obviously much safer with species that do not transpire as fast (conifers) as others (deciduous) - and also why wet, overcast conditions are better. Conifers also have that new, super efficient foliage to power root growth once it hardens somewhere in June/July for most people, whereas deciduous trees have been in full photosynthesis mode for a few months now so nothing new for them right now.
This very forum is full of people in different parts of NA and Europe who have done summer repottings with a variety of conifers, often removing half or more of the rootball, with a high level of success. Late summer/early fall collecting of conifers is also very much a thing here, and some people swear that spruce, for ex., should never be collected in the spring. Randy Knight also says that from his experience, his success rate is much higher when he collects spruce later in the season (from a Mirai stream from this spring).
WP’s techniques, if you properly understand the caveats that he often repeats, are applicable to a whole lot of people in both Europe and North America (and maybe even places like NZ). Anything around Pennsylvania and north, something like that? That’s the whole of New England + the Midwest + Canada... that’s a lot of people. In Europe, UK + Scandivania + the northern part of continental Europe? That’s a lot of people. A whole lot of people whose climate doesn’t bear much resemblance to that of the warmer parts of Japan, where those bonsai technical norms come from.
Derek, you’re a deciduous guy, I think there’s no reason to move repotting of a deciduous tree from spring at budbreak to late summer (unless you have a dire emergency, like a broken container or an uplifted tree). WP does it with super established maples as you know, but only with very minor disturbance to the roots. (An aside: spring repottings are never risk-free either if you do not have a controlled environment for newly repotted trees. This spring has been a killer for me, I repotted a few (deciduous) shrubs from nursery containers to substrate in early April and I lost half of them, mostly because - aside from potential technical shortcomings - I think we got way too much rain and too little sun/heat to really kickstart their recovery in April, May and early June.)
However, conifers, which do not transpire nearly as much as a deciduous in full leaf, are much better candidates for late summer repottings in our climate. This week’s forecast is actually perfect to repot a spruce, for ex (not to mention a mugo, that’s been very well-established at this point). Real hard repotting, like removing a fair amount of roots, not just gently reorganizing roots in a different container.
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Cosmos
Shohin
By the way, 2 more quick things:
1) Not sure I follow you when you say working the nebari of a spruce. What techniques would you apply, what have you tried in your experience with spruce? Genuine question, not trying to be a smartass or anything.
I thought that when you get a spruce, you gotta like the base as it is, because I don’t know if there’s a safe way to go under the nebari and spread the roots radially, unless you collect one with an already perfectly flat shallow root system. Most spruce posted on this forum are either collected or from nursery stock, and I think you’d be hard-pressed in most of these cases to get under there to "work the roots" the way you’d do with a maple or even a JBP.
2) I hate doing the "Big Name says that X and that’s my entire point", but Ryan Neil mentions in one of his pine streams that white pines in Japan are repotted in late summer by some professionals. Judging by his tone when he mentioned that, it wasn’t something Kimura did. I don’t know which professionals either, or which parts of Japan, he doesn’t mention, maybe someone here would know.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Um, well, not really. Depends on species, conditions, etc. The summer collection thing was first done, if I'm not mistaken, in the U.K. with English oak. Summer in the U.K, ain't summer in say, Georgia, Texas, or heck even Illinois.
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
Derek,
you did it again, badmouth me and misquote me. Where did I say that late summer repotting is better for the whole world? if anything I said that it is better for me.
All my caveats are for the idiots who are around in the bonsai world. They will not really read, rip out trees in June and July, repot whenever they feel, misquote and badmouth me. And they will kill trees and blame me. Never underestimate the idiocy of folks.
I do NOT come here to educate people. I show what I do and you can do with this what you like. You can discuss this, but not with me. I do not owe anybody any explanation. And I will keep getting the best trees I can even if some explode of envy.
you did it again, badmouth me and misquote me. Where did I say that late summer repotting is better for the whole world? if anything I said that it is better for me.
All my caveats are for the idiots who are around in the bonsai world. They will not really read, rip out trees in June and July, repot whenever they feel, misquote and badmouth me. And they will kill trees and blame me. Never underestimate the idiocy of folks.
I do NOT come here to educate people. I show what I do and you can do with this what you like. You can discuss this, but not with me. I do not owe anybody any explanation. And I will keep getting the best trees I can even if some explode of envy.
BackyardBonsai
Shohin
We will be hitting upper 90s and 100s for the next few weeks. It is late summer for others but we have just started.
One thing I learnt is to not taking anything anyone said without taking your environment into consideration. Back to it all depends.....
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
At the end of the day...it comes down to what we all preach. LOCATION. What works for one...may not for another. Mr Pall clearly touches on that in his post.
I grasp ones trying to ensure others grasp that. But in the same sense respect many here ..and see points to all said.
That said...thanks @Walter Pall for sharing...your climate sounds close to my own...so I can really chew over your advice and take it to heart. Please keep sharing.
I grasp ones trying to ensure others grasp that. But in the same sense respect many here ..and see points to all said.
That said...thanks @Walter Pall for sharing...your climate sounds close to my own...so I can really chew over your advice and take it to heart. Please keep sharing.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
In Michigan, August often brings a pleasant break in the weather, sometimes early, sometimes late. It changes from hot and sometimes dry to just nice. It begins the Pinky mushroom season if accompanied by rain. The Euonymus Burning Bush begins to evolve red. It begins the long season of hardening off. Very different from TX. Add to that the factors which are dependent upon the individual's micro-climate and our own habits in care of our trees and it's absolutely pivotal in how we interpret and apply advice from a German guy or some Japanese gardener.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Sorry, I do not know who you are, nor what you have done bonsai-wise in your life. I do however know who Walter is, and what he has done. Who are you to claim that he owes you an explanation. He after all, states very clearly:
Note the last 3 words.
I for one would prefer Walter to keep posting what he does and how, over you getting your bitching rights settled.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Wow. Ok, so we can't ask questions--just stare in awe of your creations?
Isn't questioning how you began your journey in bonsai?
Flatly stating you owe nobody anything is plain wrong. YOU benefitted from enormous input from others over the years. I understand your aversion to posting anything. Ive seen the idiots who called you names and questioned your basic abilities--It sucked. Move on. Everyone is not out to get you. Many just want to hear details, whys, etc.
By the way, the outright attacks (and there are none in this thread) happento ALL OF US who have been doing this for any amount of time.
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atlarsenal
Omono
Post # 32?
Saddler
Chumono
He doesn’t say we can’t ask questions. In fact WP has answered the majority of mine. The questions just need to well worded, intelligent and specific with the answers not being easily found on the internet. I have noticed that most questions that can be answered with seeing the details and deductive reasoning get dismissed.
Choose your words carefully just as Walter does and you can get answers.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
good post. i would just like to add, ive been experimenting with out of season repotting for a while now, for my own convenience . this year alone ive re potted and root pruned hornbeam in the month of june and i did two maples last month. the hornbeams went into fairly large training pots, quite a big down scale from the air pots they were in. the maples went from plastic bonsai pots to slightly smaller shohin ceramic pots. ive never lost a deciduous tree from repotting it in leaf, but i have seen the inevitable transpiration on a few leaves, the extent depends on how much root was removed. what i always find is, branches never die off, and the leaves lost through moisture loss usually are replaced by fresh growth in a matter of 2-3 weeks. so not much different really than if one had partially defoliated.
the maples that were re potted at the start of july were sold three weeks after, lost the odd leaf here n there but nothing major, as we know a healthy tree will replace lost or damaged leaves in a matter of weeks. they were healthy enough to be sold 3 weeks after july repotting. i sold Conardash a large hornbeam that had the bottom half of its rootball removed with a saw in june. he purchased the tree in july and its now growing like mad in his back yard. the odd leaf was lost through transpiration but nothing for me to be alarmed about.
its good to experiment, ive lost a few yews by normal procedure. i repotted one a couple days ago so will see how that gets on. but what ive learned, is that i can literally re pot or root prune a tree anytime i want, ive gotten to a stage where im beginning to understand the pain threshold, how much can a tree take at any given time.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I don't find that "attacking".
I actually appreciate all the points @derek7745 has been making, from the Rafael threads up till these.
Very Contained and Well Written.
I agree with this,
The same human nature has other folks on here also thinking they are still being attacked, when in fact, the Pillory has turned to a Throne under their asses and they can't decipher this difference!
People will still argue with this older gaurd, but I haven't seen it without respect.
If someone says to hey don't respect Walter, or Vance, or Ahem, Smoke, they're lying to themselves...so...fuck em!
They'll never make a good tree out of lies!
Anyway, please realize it's the internet's fault.
We must continue to evolve with it.
In peace. And learning.
Sorce
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Cosmos
Shohin
Thanks for sharing, it’s great that you’re doing these experiments, that’s how bonsai knowledge grows. Keep us posted and maybe you and other British posters (or practitioners with the same climate) will come to definitive conclusions as to when that can be done, right weather, which species, level of vigour required, etc.
atlarsenal
Omono
I would consider this pretty disrespectful.
my issue is that some guy in south germany keeps telling people that late-summer repotting is better and is meant to replace spring repotting, even in the context of japanese maples! i don't mind that i look like a gadfly on this topic. @Walter Pall is not going to get away with disparaging comments about what he views as outdated japanese methods without clarifying his position.
