Engelmann Spruce (Picea engelmannii) progression

Arcto

Chumono
Messages
863
Reaction score
1,446
Location
PNW
Nice job bringing out the movement in this tree. And your work area is so neat! Can I borrow your shop vacuum?
 

Potawatomi13

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,168
Reaction score
4,403
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8
Well collected, well styled so far. Also add enjoyment of cones you had. Some branches go up from trunk before down curve. Any plan to change this:confused:?
 

Hartinez

Masterpiece
Messages
4,149
Reaction score
13,009
Location
Albuquerque, NM
USDA Zone
7
So, as noted above, I styled this tree at the end of April. I thought I would do some quick Fall shoot selection, but by mid-September, many of the wires had bitten in too much to leave on, so I un-wired almost the whole tree. The primary and most secondary branches held their positions well, but the shoots sprung up, so I re-wired the whole tree... much more Fall work than I had bargained on!
View attachment 267242
View attachment 267243
Next spring, it will go into the Giorgi pot and @0soyoung, I do plan on dealing with that top jin!
Wow! Looks great!

Wires already biting?!?! Tree is obviously quite healthy. I read a thread of Walter palls at one point that said he’d left wire on a spruce for like 5 yrs or something. Amazing you had to remove yours so quickly!

At initial styling did you remove much foliage? And are you planning to bring the overall silhouette in a bit?

I styled one of mine just over a month ago that I need to update on its thread. You’ll have to give me your critique when you see it.

either way, another tree in your collection that can and will only get better and better! Great job!
 
Last edited:

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
3,331
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
Wires already biting?!?! Tree is obviously quite healthy. I read a thread of Walter palls at one point that said he’d left wire on a spruce for like 5 yrs or something. Amazing you had to remove yours so quickly!

At initial styling did you remove much foliage? And are you planning to bring the overall silhouette in a bit?
Yeah, it powered through the fertilizer pellets this fall, putting on vascular tissue. I removed a lot of foliage at the initial styling (maybe 50%). I will bring some branches in as back buds develop (already started to on the back side with this latest work), but I want to push the asymmetry, keeping the movement to the right, as much as the base will visually support. There will also be some more branch removal and jin formation in the future.
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
3,331
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
Well collected, well styled so far. Also add enjoyment of cones you had. Some branches go up from trunk before down curve. Any plan to change this:confused:?
One, or two of them have a short arc as they emerge, but I’m not bothered by it. It’s very common in nature. It would take a wedge cut to completely eliminate that and I’m not planning to do that.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,873
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
So are you saying you let the new growth extend without pinching, wait to see where/if buds form along that new shoot, then cut back to that location? That might work better than the pinching I've been doing.
@coh, I don’t pinch my Colorado Blue Spruce either. Until new buds have set. Then, I cut back to a chosen bud. Same for Atlas Cedar.

I have never had an Englemann, but the technique of “not pinching, waiting, then cutting back” works well.

That method is in direct opposition to the teaching of Larry Jackel. He teaches pinching in the spring. I did that once, under his supervision in a Colorado Blue Spruce workshop, and the tree later died. I don’t know if it was due to the pinching, or whether the tree was simply too weak, but that was my result. A couple years later, I took another workshop with Larry, styled the tree, but did not pinch it. It is still living, and thriving, and there’s ton of back buds.

Therefore, I feel that there’s no need to pinch spring growth. Let the tree grow strong, then cut back to a bud.
 

Djtommy

Omono
Messages
1,551
Reaction score
5,367
Location
Tokyo
@coh, I don’t pinch my Colorado Blue Spruce either. Until new buds have set. Then, I cut back to a chosen bud. Same for Atlas Cedar.

I have never had an Englemann, but the technique of “not pinching, waiting, then cutting back” works well.

That method is in direct opposition to the teaching of Larry Jackel. He teaches pinching in the spring. I did that once, under his supervision in a Colorado Blue Spruce workshop, and the tree later died. I don’t know if it was due to the pinching, or whether the tree was simply too weak, but that was my result. A couple years later, I took another workshop with Larry, styled the tree, but did not pinch it. It is still living, and thriving, and there’s ton of back buds.

Therefore, I feel that there’s no need to pinch spring growth. Let the tree grow strong, then cut back to a bud.
pinching has its place too, if you have interior buds that needs some strengthening, its good to pinch the strong growing tips, the weaker ones will grow stronger then.
 

Mayank

Chumono
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,592
Location
SE Michigan

MACH5

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,064
Reaction score
28,365
Location
Northern New Jersey
@Adair M I am surprised because in my experience with blue spruce they are tough and will take lots of "abuse" (wiring, pinching etc) with no issues.

However, Engelmann spruce a VERY different story. I leaned a hard lesson with them. You have to approach them carefully and the work needs to be staggered rather than an all at once approach. I have a large tall one where I notched one of its thick branches and brought it way down with the aid of guy wires. I have been doing this for two years now. Next will be to bring up a section of that branch with raffia to create a second apex. I will wait another year before I do my basic structural wiring. Another year after that I will consider secondary and tertiary wiring. Otherwise I fear it will end up in the compost pile. They resent heavy work on them all at once.

Ryan Neil does pinch to redistribute the energy back to the weaker buds inside.
 

coh

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,781
Reaction score
6,822
Location
Rochester, NY
USDA Zone
6
@Adair M and @MACH5 , my approach was based on what Ryan had been demoing and recommending in his streams. Also he had responded directly to email questions I sent him, in which I described the results I was seeing - when you pinch the new shoots as they are extending in the spring, on Engelman you do NOT (generally) get buds at the pinch site or even along that new shoot. Instead, you get 1 or more buds at the base of that shoot (kind of similar to what happens when you decandle a JBP, except the buds don't extend until the next spring). And that shoot will never produce any buds, it will just sit there for a year or two before dying off. Ryan made the observation that this behavior is very different from other spruces. I haven't worked with other spruces so I don't have anything to compare with.

The above process seems to result in some back budding further back along the branch, but as is typical - the most backbudding seems to occur when you allow the shoots to extend and mature without any pinching or pruning.

Anyway, I'm going to try allowing shoots to extend next spring to see if I get buds to cut back to along those shoots. We'll see.

I haven't noticed that mine responds negatively to any other work - I've wired the whole tree but haven't done anything severe to it like notching branches. Will keep your experience in mind, Sergio!
 

MACH5

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,064
Reaction score
28,365
Location
Northern New Jersey
@Adair M and @MACH5 , my approach was based on what Ryan had been demoing and recommending in his streams. Also he had responded directly to email questions I sent him, in which I described the results I was seeing - when you pinch the new shoots as they are extending in the spring, on Engelman you do NOT (generally) get buds at the pinch site or even along that new shoot. Instead, you get 1 or more buds at the base of that shoot (kind of similar to what happens when you decandle a JBP, except the buds don't extend until the next spring). And that shoot will never produce any buds, it will just sit there for a year or two before dying off. Ryan made the observation that this behavior is very different from other spruces. I haven't worked with other spruces so I don't have anything to compare with.

The above process seems to result in some back budding further back along the branch, but as is typical - the most backbudding seems to occur when you allow the shoots to extend and mature without any pinching or pruning.

Anyway, I'm going to try allowing shoots to extend next spring to see if I get buds to cut back to along those shoots. We'll see.

I haven't noticed that mine responds negatively to any other work - I've wired the whole tree but haven't done anything severe to it like notching branches. Will keep your experience in mind, Sergio!

Thanks Chris. Thus far I have never pinched mine since I am nowhere near a point to do so. I have just been cutting back. Interesting to see that the shoot will not bud back at the cut site but rather at the base at least in most instances. If we go by this, then are we to assume that at some point you will end up with a bunch of dead tips? Curious if Ryan elaborated on this?
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
3,331
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
There’s no problem doing a full wiring on an Engelmann, but it has to be done either in spring, when the buds are just showing some green (if they’re open, it’s too late), or in the fall. Also, spruce branches don’t respond well to twisting. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I think this tree could be an Engelmann x Blue hybrid, but Ryan doesn’t hesitate to do a full styling on Engelmanns. I have one that I collected this August that is pure Engelmann and I’ll start a thread on it at the appropriate time.
 

MACH5

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,064
Reaction score
28,365
Location
Northern New Jersey
There’s no problem doing a full wiring on an Engelmann, but it has to be done either in spring, when the buds are just showing some green (if they’re open, it’s too late), or in the fall. Also, spruce branches don’t respond well to twisting. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I think this tree could be an Engelmann x Blue hybrid, but Ryan doesn’t hesitate to do a full styling on Engelmanns. I have one that I collected this August that is pure Engelmann and I’ll start a thread on it at the appropriate time.


Inetresting. I have done two full stylings on Engelmann's and the trees suffered greatly! Not so on blue spruce. I did both stylings in the fall. Perhaps I worked it too hard? Do you wire everything to the tips?
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
3,331
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
Thanks Chris. Thus far I have never pinched mine since I am nowhere near a point to do so. I have just been cutting back. Interesting to see that the shoot will not bud back at the cut site but rather at the base at least in most instances. If we go by this, then are we to assume that at some point you will end up with a bunch of dead tips? Curious if Ryan elaborated on this?
I’ll see Ryan in a couple of weeks and I plan to ask him about this, because he told us the same thing when I did my Elongating Species courses, but on the live streams with the cascade Engelmann, they did pinch to re-distribute energy without looking for buds. Maybe the thinking is that stimulating the weaker shoots takes priority at that time and you can always replace a terminal shoot with one of the new buds that will form at its base.
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
3,331
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
Inetresting. I have done two full stylings on Engelmann's and the trees suffered greatly! Not so on blue spruce. I did both stylings in the fall. Perhaps I worked it too hard? Do you wire everything to the tips?
I wired everything. How long after wiring did you have until your first freeze? Spring is still the best time to do heavy work.
 

MACH5

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,064
Reaction score
28,365
Location
Northern New Jersey
I’ll see Ryan in a couple of weeks and I plan to ask him about this, because he told us the same thing when I did my Elongating Species courses, but on the live streams with the cascade Engelmann, they did pinch to re-distribute energy without looking for buds. Maybe the thinking is that stimulating the weaker shoots takes priority at that time and you can always replace a terminal shoot with one of the new buds that will form at its base.


Please do ask him as I want to try and perfect my approach and technique on Engelmann as is one of my favorite conifer species.
 

MACH5

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,064
Reaction score
28,365
Location
Northern New Jersey
I wired everything. How long after wiring did you have until your first freeze? Spring is still the best time to do heavy work.

I honestly cannot remember. Maybe that's part of the problem? I will definitely take that into account as I prefer to do work in the spring no matter the species.
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
3,331
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
I honestly cannot remember. Maybe that's part of the problem? I will definitely take that into account as I prefer to do work in the spring no matter the species.
After heavy fall work, they should have a minimum of four and preferably six weeks until the first hard freeze. If there’s any doubt, they should have cold protection.
 
Top Bottom