Kiwi’s Larch Forest Restoration.

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi all,
I have been lucky enough to be given this old (30 odd years) Larch forest. Unfortunately this forest has been left to get old without keeping any lower branches (or they died off etc).

Front, boxes to got regrowth



Back


I am planning on trying my hand at thread grafting to refurbish some lower branches
Tagging a couple of people for advice - @Forsoothe! , @Paulpash.
Orhers advice is of course welcome.
Charles

 

[Paulpash]

Hi all,
I have been lucky enough to be given this old (30 odd years) Larch forest. Unfortunately this forest has been left to get old without keeping any lower branches (or they died off etc).

Front, boxes to got regrowth
View attachment 278498
View attachment 278499View attachment 278501

Back
View attachment 278500

I am planning on trying my hand at thread grafting to refurbish some lower branches
Tagging a couple of people for advice - @Forsoothe! , @Paulpash.
Orhers advice is of course welcome.
Charles

Choose a drill bit slightly larger than the buds on your donor shoot. Having a big hole means it will take longer to knit...

Start drilling at the exit side of your intended graft point as opposed to the entry point, so drill in the OPPOSITE direction that the shoot will be passed through the tree. The reason is that when the drill bit breaks through to the other side it'll bust up the bark a lot more. I apply a few inches of sticky tape at this point to try and minimize it.

Drill slowly with thought about the angle you want your shoot to emerge on the other side.

When the hole is done, use a bit of wire to clean it by inserting it right through a few times to the other side & clear any sawdust and check that nothing is catching.

Pass the shoot through slowly and don't force it. If you break the buds or shoot it's a goner so if you find too much resistance carefully back it out and reinsert the drill then reclear with wire again.

When the shoot is free on the other side try and pull it through so you have as much shoot as possible on graft side without forcing it. It'll be stronger and thicken faster. Ensure this shoot has MAXIMUM sun. Don't put it in the shade of a branch above for example. You can gently wire it for shape and to get it in a sunny position.

If there's a big gap use a wedge (a shoot pruning off your larch will do) to force the donor shoot up against the top of the hole. Be very careful when you cut the excess of the wedge shoot off that you don't cut your donor shoot too. It's easily done.

Leave a bud very close to the hole, just past where you will apply a PUTTY sealer around both shoots and around the hole to stop the ingress of water into the hole itself. Don't use liquid sealer - it could run and interfere with the graft.

Once it's done remove all buds on the donor shoot that's not needed with scissors or rub them off gently, ie those before the entry point of the shoot. All energy should be focused on the exit side buds.

Lastly, leave the shoot to grow untouched all year so NO PRUNING. We want max foliage mass on the exit side to thicken it up!

A few clues on when to separate. The exit side of the shoot should appear at least double the thickness of the entry side. This means that the shoot is getting fed from the graft site as well as from the donor branch. Secondly, the callus and thickening should start pushing away the putty. You'll see the base of the donor branch as it exits the hole start to spread.

When I'm 100% sure it's taken (if in any doubt wait - this might take 2 seasons) I usually nick the shoot just before it enters the hole. Wait a week, nick it some more and over a month cut it off completely. This gradually weakens its reliance on the exit side for nourishment and strengthens the exit side.

Good luck please post back if you want more details about specific points.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I don't have much to offer, just this: Over time the trees have their roots intertwined to the point that they are trimmed as one gob of tree roots and that enriches one or more trees at the expense of companions. So with two trees immediately next to each other, one grows well because his roots got trimmed relatively little, and the brother grows poorly because he got trimmed too much. It only gets worse. The exterior trees have fresher roots because the outboard side gets greatly trimmed at the same time that the roots joining the inboard side doesn't. That's effectively like shovel pruning in the ground: the the lesser or unpruned side can support re-growing the highly pruned side. The interior trees get bottom pruned which may or may not leave enough roots with someplace to grow to support re-growing what is needed. Eventually the brother dies. It's always better to keep separating them at repotting, but it gets harder and harder to do and we take they easy road. I would do this in early June when the first flush of foliage is mature, don't reduce foliage or buds this spring, keep them wet, fed, and in full sun. (If they are Larix larcina) I would add Humic Acid regularly, too. (cheap)

You need to bite the bullet and separate these trees and grow them separately for a enough time to rejuvenate the lot. That would also allow you to grow companion baby trees close-by that can be your source for low thread grafting.

 

[leatherback]

Naturally, instead of grafting, you could find a bunch of younger, shorter plants to plant on the fringes. No lower branches INSIDE a forest..

 

[sorce]

With a careful reconsideration of the front and the addition of said outskirt trees, I think you can win without seperation.



Sorce

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Choose a drill bit slightly larger than the buds on your donor shoot. Having a big hole means it will take longer to knit...

Start drilling at the exit side of your intended graft point as opposed to the entry point, so drill in the OPPOSITE direction that the shoot will be passed through the tree. The reason is that when the drill bit breaks through to the other side it'll bust up the bark a lot more. I apply a few inches of sticky tape at this point to try and minimize it.

Drill slowly with thought about the angle you want your shoot to emerge on the other side.

When the hole is done, use a bit of wire to clean it by inserting it right through a few times to the other side & clear any sawdust and check that nothing is catching.

Pass the shoot through slowly and don't force it. If you break the buds or shoot it's a goner so if you find too much resistance carefully back it out and reinsert the drill then reclear with wire again.

When the shoot is free on the other side try and pull it through so you have as much shoot as possible on graft side without forcing it. It'll be stronger and thicken faster. Ensure this shoot has MAXIMUM sun. Don't put it in the shade of a branch above for example. You can gently wire it for shape and to get it in a sunny position.

If there's a big gap use a wedge (a shoot pruning off your larch will do) to force the donor shoot up against the top of the hole. Be very careful when you cut the excess of the wedge shoot off that you don't cut your donor shoot too. It's easily done.

Leave a bud very close to the hole, just past where you will apply a PUTTY sealer around both shoots and around the hole to stop the ingress of water into the hole itself. Don't use liquid sealer - it could run and interfere with the graft.

Once it's done remove all buds on the donor shoot that's not needed with scissors or rub them off gently, ie those before the entry point of the shoot. All energy should be focused on the exit side buds.

Lastly, leave the shoot to grow untouched all year so NO PRUNING. We want max foliage mass on the exit side to thicken it up!

A few clues on when to separate. The exit side of the shoot should appear at least double the thickness of the entry side. This means that the shoot is getting fed from the graft site as well as from the donor branch. Secondly, the callus and thickening should start pushing away the putty. You'll see the base of the donor branch as it exits the hole start to spread.

When I'm 100% sure it's taken (if in any doubt wait - this might take 2 seasons) I usually nick the shoot just before it enters the hole. Wait a week, nick it some more and over a month cut it off completely. This gradually weakens its reliance on the exit side for nourishment and strengthens the exit side.

Good luck please post back if you want more details about specific points.

Hi Paul,
Wow, many thanks for your detailed response, definitely have to bookmark my own thread lol, so I can reread all this information. The part about letting the new part of the thread branch double in girth to ensure it has taken .
So from what you see in the pictures, do you think it is a good idea the thread grafting? Or plant a few little trees to bulk out the lower missing branch areas?
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

With a careful reconsideration of the front and the addition of said outskirt trees, I think you can win without seperation.

View attachment 278587

Sorce

Hi Sorce,

With the addition of “outskirt” trees? As in more around the edges? Not fill-in the middle?
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

I don't have much to offer, just this: Over time the trees have their roots intertwined to the point that they are trimmed as one gob of tree roots and that enriches one or more trees at the expense of companions. So with two trees immediately next to each other, one grows well because his roots got trimmed relatively little, and the brother grows poorly because he got trimmed too much. It only gets worse. The exterior trees have fresher roots because the outboard side gets greatly trimmed at the same time that the roots joining the inboard side doesn't. That's effectively like shovel pruning in the ground: the the lesser or unpruned side can support re-growing the highly pruned side. The interior trees get bottom pruned which may or may not leave enough roots with someplace to grow to support re-growing what is needed. Eventually the brother dies. It's always better to keep separating them at repotting, but it gets harder and harder to do and we take they easy road. I would do this in early June when the first flush of foliage is mature, don't reduce foliage or buds this spring, keep them wet, fed, and in full sun. (If they are Larix larcina) I would add Humic Acid regularly, too. (cheap)

You need to bite the bullet and separate these trees and grow them separately for a enough time to rejuvenate the lot. That would also allow you to grow companion baby trees close-by that can be your source for low thread grafting.

Hi,
Thank you for your reply. I am dreading the idea of dismantling this forest, Larix decidua, so I will try and get this healthy again and contemplate its future.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Naturally, instead of grafting, you could find a bunch of younger, shorter plants to plant on the fringes. No lower branches INSIDE a forest..

Hi,
Thank you for your idea. I do like the idea of more trees to add a younger part to this. My problem I want to learn how to resolve is the “gappiness” of this through the middle. Could I plant both in front and behind to disguise the gap thing? Or what would be your opinion be (sorry more info help please)?
Charles

 

[Shibui]

I would not play around with thread grafting on this. Thread grafts are not always successful. You need branches long enough to bend down and thread through the holes. Evergreens are harder to do as holes need to be larger to allow needles to go through the hole.
I'd be taking some cuttings when you can get good growth from these trees and use those to fill the gaps. As mentioned earlier trees inside a forest naturally have bare trunks so all you really need here is foliage at the back.

I don't have much to offer, just this: Over time the trees have their roots intertwined to the point that they are trimmed as one gob of tree roots and that enriches one or more trees at the expense of companions. So with two trees immediately next to each other, one grows well because his roots got trimmed relatively little, and the brother grows poorly because he got trimmed too much. It only gets worse. The exterior trees have fresher roots because the outboard side gets greatly trimmed at the same time that the roots joining the inboard side doesn't. That's effectively like shovel pruning in the ground: the the lesser or unpruned side can support re-growing the highly pruned side. The interior trees get bottom pruned which may or may not leave enough roots with someplace to grow to support re-growing what is needed. Eventually the brother dies. It's always better to keep separating them at repotting, but it gets harder and harder to do and we take they easy road. I would do this in early June when the first flush of foliage is mature, don't reduce foliage or buds this spring, keep them wet, fed, and in full sun. (If they are Larix larcina) I would add Humic Acid regularly, too. (cheap)

You need to bite the bullet and separate these trees and grow them separately for a enough time to rejuvenate the lot. That would also allow you to grow companion baby trees close-by that can be your source for low thread grafting.

First, I must disclose that I don't grow larch here because of incompatible climate but I do grow groups - lots of groups. Forsooth's reply sounds like theory rather than practice. I find that outer trees grow far better in groups and clumps because they have more access to space and therefore nutrients. Root pruning only temporarily slows trees. As soon as the roots start to regenerate those root pruned trees have even more roots and even more space to grow and seek nutrients and they take off. I have to work hard to suppress the growth of outer trees to stop them growing larger than their internal mates. These observations come from 30+ years of growing and developing both groups and clump style bonsai.
IMHO it is NOT better to separate trees at repotting. Allowing the group to stay together is NOT the easy road it is the best approach.
Also note that KiwiPlantGuy is in Kiwiland so the proposed June separation is in his mid winter rather than as first flush matures.

 

[leatherback]

Hi,
Thank you for your idea. I do like the idea of more trees to add a younger part to this. My problem I want to learn how to resolve is the “gappiness” of this through the middle. Could I plant both in front and behind to disguise the gap thing? Or what would be your opinion be (sorry more info help please)?
Charles

Just putting a few youngsters in the back. And depending on how open you want to look into the forest, one or two on the side in the front. This will give you plenty of green to simulate the idea of a forest. A bit of wiring ill already clean this up a lot too.

I would not take the forest apart. This is only done when no other alternative is available. It is not common or even recommended practice.

It does not need much.Look at each individual tree in the forest below and trace how much green they have, especially those inside.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I would not play around with thread grafting on this. Thread grafts are not always successful. You need branches long enough to bend down and thread through the holes. Evergreens are harder to do as holes need to be larger to allow needles to go through the hole.
I'd be taking some cuttings when you can get good growth from these trees and use those to fill the gaps. As mentioned earlier trees inside a forest naturally have bare trunks so all you really need here is foliage at the back.


First, I must disclose that I don't grow larch here because of incompatible climate but I do grow groups - lots of groups. Forsooth's reply sounds like theory rather than practice. I find that outer trees grow far better in groups and clumps because they have more access to space and therefore nutrients. Root pruning only temporarily slows trees. As soon as the roots start to regenerate those root pruned trees have even more roots and even more space to grow and seek nutrients and they take off. I have to work hard to suppress the growth of outer trees to stop them growing larger than their internal mates. These observations come from 30+ years of growing and developing both groups and clump style bonsai.
IMHO it is NOT better to separate trees at repotting. Allowing the group to stay together is NOT the easy road it is the best approach.
Also note that KiwiPlantGuy is in Kiwiland so the proposed June separation is in his mid winter rather than as first flush matures.

Look at my Icon. Practice, not theory. I can't extrapolate what the June equivalent in New Zealand might be from the equatorial north to the snow covered mountains in the south. That's up to the OP to make that adjustment.

 

[Paulpash]

Hi Paul,
Wow, many thanks for your detailed response, definitely have to bookmark my own thread lol, so I can reread all this information. The part about letting the new part of the thread branch double in girth to ensure it has taken .
So from what you see in the pictures, do you think it is a good idea the thread grafting? Or plant a few little trees to bulk out the lower missing branch areas?
Charles

Do you have existing branch length to graft at the spots you want? If not plan for next year and leave some shoots long.

Adding more trees is an option but also consider...

*extra trees = extra width. Is bench space a premium? Can you easily source additional, suitable trees for the edge of your composition?
*extra width = harder to obtain and more expensive pot (or slab?).

I'd wire it out first and then decide. Larch are very flexible. You might be able to get away with just placing the available branches better. Once they're in place you'll be able to identify any glaring gaps that detract from the image.

 

[Paulpash]

I would not play around with thread grafting on this. Thread grafts are not always successful. You need branches long enough to bend down and thread through the holes. Evergreens are harder to do as holes need to be larger to allow needles to go through the hole.
I'd be taking some cuttings when you can get good growth from these trees and use those to fill the gaps. As mentioned earlier trees inside a forest naturally have bare trunks so all you really need here is foliage at the back.


First, I must disclose that I don't grow larch here because of incompatible climate but I do grow groups - lots of groups. Forsooth's reply sounds like theory rather than practice. I find that outer trees grow far better in groups and clumps because they have more access to space and therefore nutrients. Root pruning only temporarily slows trees. As soon as the roots start to regenerate those root pruned trees have even more roots and even more space to grow and seek nutrients and they take off. I have to work hard to suppress the growth of outer trees to stop them growing larger than their internal mates. These observations come from 30+ years of growing and developing both groups and clump style bonsai.
IMHO it is NOT better to separate trees at repotting. Allowing the group to stay together is NOT the easy road it is the best approach.
Also note that KiwiPlantGuy is in Kiwiland so the proposed June separation is in his mid winter rather than as first flush matures.

Hi Shibui. Larch are deciduous so you graft when it's lost all foliage. They callus incredibly well. I've done about a dozen grafts on Larch and it's pretty reliable - I can't think of a fail with Larch.

 

[sorce]

Hi Sorce,

With the addition of “outskirt” trees? As in more around the edges? Not fill-in the middle?
Charles

Yeah I think @leatherback nailed it to suggest a few more on the edges.
If simply because it's easier to make great adjustments via addition, than rearranging.

I like the sparse interior.

What's there seems workable into believable pieces. Only, not places for the birds to fly thru, places for the vultures to roost.

Sorce

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Keep in mind that adding smaller trees to the rear edge of the forest in the background will help with filling out the spareness. Not just the left or right edges of the forest.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would be delighted to have a forest as mature or "post-mature" as this one on my bench.

Rather than using long branches from existing trees, if you are fairly certain you can match species of larch, you can use young seedlings, in small plastic pots as the scion donors for thread grafting. As long as you match Larix decidua to Larix decidua and Larix laricina to Larix laricina, and so forth, the foliage characteristics should be "close enough" that using seedlings as scion donors will be no problem.

 

[PABonsai]

Please take this with a grain of salt, as I am not experienced in the least. But the question of separating vs not separating came up. And when I look at the photo, all my untrained eye can see is that I feel that biggest tree on the left is tallest, thickest and dominant and that this forest should be separated and that one placed in the middle as the mother tree. Can someone else weigh in on this thought? Am I way off base in this observation?

 

[leatherback]

that I feel that biggest tree on the left is tallest, thickest and dominant

You mean the dead tree?

In general, the two biggest trees should be placed more or less next to eachother, and the rest f the forest needs to get smaller as you move away. Putting the biggest tree in the middle would create too much symmetry imho. I would always put the biggest eft or right from the centre, and depending on the image, this could be very near the edge for me.

 

[PABonsai]

You mean the dead tree?

In general, the two biggest trees should be placed more or less next to eachother, and the rest f the forest needs to get smaller as you move away. Putting the biggest tree in the middle would create too much symmetry imho. I would always put the biggest eft or right from the centre, and depending on the image, this could be very near the edge for me.

I mean, not smack dab middle but yes. Right now it's barely second from left (by fractions of an inch), and that's backwards to me. I just feel like it should be 3-4th from left at least. I might be wrong. I am learning so that's why I wanted to put my observation forth, to see if I am learning anything lol.