Ever seen scale growth on a procumbens?

Japonicus

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Arnold, procumbens in Japan aren’t that popular because they stay juvi, or revert to it when they get repotted and/or pruned.
Maybe you could correct me or clear up my possible misuse of the term juvenile.
To me juvenile, is changing from what is normal to the opposite due to a stress.
If normal foliage is scale, needle is expressed, or visa versa a needle procumbens, expresses scale to whatever degree.
Is this correct? Sometimes to avoid possibly misusing the term I just say scale when talking about needle junipers.
 

Adair M

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With junipers, typically, the scale foliage is the mature foliage. It tends to grow fairly slowly, except when making “runners”.

Stressed junipers and junipers that are growing really fast will produce the spiky foliage we call “juvenile”.

(Tosho is an exception, and I’m not sure about Foemina juniper. They’re always spiky. There may be some others as well.)

For what it’s worth, I used to believe that Procumbens only produced juvi foliage, too, back in the day. Until I saw some really old ones that had developed scale foliage. It’s not common that they do it. The ones I have seen it on the most have been old ones that have been virtually neglected! I don’t think it should be a “goal” to have a scale Procumbens. If you want a juniper with scale foliage, there are better choices.

But, it’s still incorrect to say they “never” go scale. Because they do. Or, perhaps more properly stated, “They can go scale”.
 

Japonicus

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I don’t think it should be a “goal” to have a scale Procumbens. If you want a juniper with scale foliage, there are better choices.
AMEN precisely been my thought all along since I began reading this thread.

So if I'm understanding you correct a generally otherwise healthy procumbens in its' natural state
has juvenile foliage all the time, unless it expresses some scale? Not that scale means unhealthy, just not the norm.
I'm not disagreeing, am here to learn. This was not my thought process and why I sought clarification.
Scale is always adult, needle is always juvenile per your reply.
EDIT: for any juniper whether needle or scale.
 
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Japonicus

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Scale procumbens is so not equal to scale shimpaku.
Scale procumbens is scatter brained and makes it very difficult for me to understand how to, and if I should thin more.
I'm afraid thinning more will amplify the issue, and issue it is for me.
 

Adair M

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Ok...

I don’t own any Procumbens myself. I don’t like them. And besides, everyone in Atlanta has one from Plant City!

But, I am keeping a couple that belong to a friend. He had to move into an apartment, and they weren’t getting enough sun. So, I’ve had them about a year.

All I do is water them.

So... I just looked... Here’s one of them, a typical Procumbens Nana:

F0DECC0A-42DB-4123-9ECF-141CCE574A97.jpeg

My friend put those tea bags full of fertilizer on about a year ago! They’ve been on there ever since. I pulled a couple weeds for the photo. Lol:

Now looky what i found:

32D79354-F594-4ACE-980B-B315115D540A.jpeg

Some scale foliage! It’s just a little bit, but by golly, it’s scale! I didn’t “do” anything to try to force it to make scale foliage. It just happens. 99.99% of the tree is juvi. This bit is scale. Will more turn scale? I have no idea. I’m going to put this back on the bench and continue to do what I’ve been doing, (which is nothing except water when I water everything else), and I’ll monitor it.

Ok, until then, I rest my case.
 

amcoffeegirl

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I emailed Michael Dirr again and this was his response- lol. 20073C64-10AE-4FB5-A791-DEBDD6B0C325.jpeg

I used the close up images from this thread.
 

Adair M

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AMEN precisely been my thought all along since I began reading this thread.

So if I'm understanding you correct a generally otherwise healthy procumbens in its' natural state
has juvenile foliage all the time, unless it expresses some scale? Not that scale means unhealthy, just not the norm.
I'm not disagreeing, am here to learn. This was not my thought process and why I sought clarification.
Scale is always adult, needle is always juvenile per your reply.
EDIT: for any juniper whether needle or scale.
Procumbens juniper, especially the “Nana” cultivar, has short needles. San Jose has longer needles. San Jose will more easily go scale, but won’t go entirely scale. I’ve seen one about 95% scale.

The expectation when working with Procumbens and San Jose is you will be working with needle foliage.

Those old Procumbens at Plant City are unusual in that so many of them are almost all scale. Some ARE all scale. But they don’t stay that way once they start getting worked. They revert to juvenile. Might they then go back to scale again? I think some of them do. I think it depends on their management. I worked the Atlanta Bonsai Society annual auction last year, and one of the members put up an old Procumbens that he had purchased from Plant City 20 years previously, and it was now once again 100% scale.
 

MichaelS

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I emailed Michael Dirr again and this was his response- lol. View attachment 328921

I used the close up images from this thread.
You should just have emailed me. I ran a nursery for 25 years and often visited a conifer nursery to buy stock. They have been growing nanas there for 50 years or so. There was never any scale foliage on them nor the hundreds that I have sold over the years.
 

MichaelS

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I have seen people working with very old procumbens in Japan, Bjorn for example worked one, and all have needles in fact many of them are used for grafting itoigawa, if they develop scales with time why these old specimens dont have scales assuming that if they do the japanese will encourage scales over neddles? the japanese sonare used for bonsai its different for the used in europe or us?
Thank you Arnold. Notice you got no ''likes''? 😁
They don't have scales because sonare does not produce them. If they did, I very much doubt they would go anywhere near them. (unless for grating shimpaku onto)
 

TN_Jim

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I could ask him if we....or.....yea, email....whait what, no....I don’t know Bjorn personally, he is a active member in NBS and the community here but......how many nana you gotta nana? I mean, really, it’s got scales sometimes..it just does! Email him and get back, it’s your nana

I’ve never seen the Eiffel Tower... Bjorn is really tall too, I’m pretty sure they both exist and odd enough are metal

When I went to school the first time, my favorite course was philosophy, I got a D, but still the best....professor went over the basics and then all-ish “philosophies”, and to this proofs in the existence of god -all to support logic as an understanding throughout time/now/etc. (I’m not an atheist -)....

As a juxtaposition of the continental US and close by, bonsai Mirai podcast recently had this cat that spoke of Plato -the allegory of the cave. Dr. Michael Seidler spoke of this allegory in the form of “horsehood” -that we view aesthetics and comprehend our realm in a way that we have precieved with our senses and compare to the best we know, and that is the baseline beyond the imagination....an IDEAL horse.. joke, mud, feeling, hotrod etc..what we personally know as art or form, or being.. , when Plato’s individual left the cave, came back to report nana scale (or opportunity),,,, doesn’t exist....nana the Rama...shadow nana’s lit from the light of the cave...I can’t remember, did they kill the one that escaped the cave?

either way, sounds a good problem to have...
 

MichaelS

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I could ask him if we....or.....yea, email....whait what, no....I don’t know Bjorn personally, he is a active member in NBS and the community here but......how many nana you gotta nana? I mean, really, it’s got scales sometimes..it just does! Email him and get back, it’s your nana

I’ve never seen the Eiffel Tower... Bjorn is really tall too, I’m pretty sure they both exist and odd enough are metal

When I went to school the first time, my favorite course was philosophy, I got a D, but still the best....professor went over the basics and then all-ish “philosophies”, and to this proofs in the existence of god -all to support logic as an understanding throughout time/now/etc. (I’m not an atheist -)....

As a juxtaposition of the continental US and close by, bonsai Mirai podcast recently had this cat that spoke of Plato -the allegory of the cave. Dr. Michael Seidler spoke of this allegory in the form of “horsehood” -that we view aesthetics and comprehend our realm in a way that we have precieved with our senses and compare to the best we know, and that is the baseline beyond the imagination....an IDEAL horse.. joke, mud, feeling, hotrod etc..what we personally know as art or form, or being.. , when Plato’s individual left the cave, came back to report nana scale (or opportunity),,,, doesn’t exist....nana the Rama...shadow nana’s lit from the light of the cave...I can’t remember, did they kill the one that escaped the cave?

either way, sounds a good problem to have...
You sound like a Californian I met once. He was fix'n to start his own space program by selling stale donuts.
 

MichaelS

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Are you saying that Procumbens nana have smooth trunks with no little protrusions all over?
Not that I have seen - as you can clearly see them here....

sanjose.JPG

Procumbens trunks are like this.....smoother, more flaky, more reddish.

protru.JPG

Adair
Have a look at the trunk in the first pic of post 173. That aint no procumbens trunk.
 
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MichaelS

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Ok...

I don’t own any Procumbens myself. I don’t like them. And besides, everyone in Atlanta has one from Plant City!

But, I am keeping a couple that belong to a friend. He had to move into an apartment, and they weren’t getting enough sun. So, I’ve had them about a year.

All I do is water them.

So... I just looked... Here’s one of them, a typical Procumbens Nana:

View attachment 328918

My friend put those tea bags full of fertilizer on about a year ago! They’ve been on there ever since. I pulled a couple weeds for the photo. Lol:

Now looky what i found:

View attachment 328917

Some scale foliage! It’s just a little bit, but by golly, it’s scale! I didn’t “do” anything to try to force it to make scale foliage. It just happens. 99.99% of the tree is juvi. This bit is scale. Will more turn scale? I have no idea. I’m going to put this back on the bench and continue to do what I’ve been doing, (which is nothing except water when I water everything else), and I’ll monitor it.

Ok, until then, I rest my case.
That's not procumbems nana. They are bluer for a start
 

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Surprised this thread is still going.
Why don't you just agree that you do not agree. Without actually putting the species next to eachother, or through a DNA analysis, you will not agree what is or is not a procumbens.
 

amcoffeegirl

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Surprised this thread is still going.
Why don't you just agree that you do not agree. Without actually putting the species next to eachother, or through a DNA analysis, you will not agree what is or is not a procumbens.
This is true!
 
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