How to increase nebari (or even that big outside roots)

[giventofly]

I went to a nursery this weekend and saw some chinese elm that I really like and took home, they had some big "on top" roots and I asked the owner how he did achieve that, and he said the trick was when the plant is very young and growing up leave with little to no substrate and that would make the roots go big and twisted like that and could only be done in the infancy of the tree.

Is this true? Can this not be maximized later in life?

 

[sorce]

I reckon the only "trick" was getting you to buy that.

Shameful if it's true, worse if it's ignorance.

In a game that is mostly about not showing the hand of man, a man's tree grown in a square pot, then placed with no work into a man's round pot, then sold to you, is not exactly a good representation of a vendor who has any clues, except maybe that from Satan.

Sorce

 

[giventofly]

The form is not square, it is round (although in the images seems to be square), the pot also has a hole for drainage.

But my question remains, what makes the roots grow like that? Entangle and "outside" ?

 

[PaulH]

what makes the roots grow like that?

Poor technique and total misunderstanding of good bonsai. These ugly roots are the result of repotting a tree without doing proper root work.

 

[giventofly]

I'm bit confused, I thought those kind of roots were nice to create something like these (with roots outside and on top instead of the "flat" nebari:

)

 

[BobbyLane]

I went to a nursery this weekend and saw some chinese elm that I really like and took home, they had some big "on top" roots and I asked the owner how he did achieve that, and he said the trick was when the plant is very young and growing up leave with little to no substrate and that would make the roots go big and twisted like that and could only be done in the infancy of the tree.

Is this true? Can this not be maximized later in life?

View attachment 449827View attachment 449828

he's having you on mate, those roots are horrendous. Its ok tho, its perfectly normal material to start out with.

 

[BobbyLane]

I'm bit confused, I thought those kind of roots were nice to create something like these (with roots outside and on top instead of the "flat" nebari:

View attachment 449846View attachment 449847View attachment 449848)

with those thicker trunks youd be looking at planting your tree in the ground for 7 to 15 years, maybe more.

 

[giventofly]

with those thicker trunks youd be looking at planting your tree in the ground for 7 to 15 years, maybe more.

But planting in the ground alone would be enough?

 

[rockm]

he's having you on mate, those roots are horrendous. Its ok tho, its perfectly normal material to start out with.

He's embellishing and "enhancing" his explanation to you. Those tangled up roots and lack of soil are simply products of neglect, no root pruning, no repotting, just let the plant sit until the top three inches of the soil erodes...not a great "technique"

The tangled nebari of the trees you've pictured are not really the same as the small tree. If you dig down into the soil underneath those specimen trees, you will find that tangle is no more. There are sorted healthy root masses given the strong tops on them. There is a big difference between actively promoting a nebari like those in the tree pics you posted and the nursery grown mess of a rootball in the smaller tree and weak-ish top growth. Those tangled roots on the specimen trees are all above the soil line. There were intentionally chosen. In the smaller tree, all the tangle is below the soil line, meaning no one has actually chosen anything, since they're mostly invisible...

 

[BobbyLane]

But planting in the ground alone would be enough?

Nope I recommend also working the roots to improve them, usually theyre planted on a flat tile, after youve splayed them out radially, or as best you can depending on what you have.
then overtime the roots begin to drag out the base of the trunk, you can work them while in the ground periodically or leave them there. but you also will be making trunk chops, once your trunk is a desired thickness, you want taper and movement.

have a look on the bonsai4me website where many of these questions can be answered with detailed descriptions and diagrams/images

but yes, trees generally do grow very fast in the ground

 

[giventofly]

He's embellishing and "enhancing" his explanation to you. Those tangled up roots and lack of soil are simply products of neglect, no root pruning, no repotting, just let the plant sit until the top three inches of the soil erodes...not a great "technique"

The tangled nebari of the trees you've pictured are not really the same as the small tree. If you dig down into the soil underneath those specimen trees, you will find that tangle is no more. There are sorted healthy root masses given the strong tops on them. There is a big difference between actively promoting a nebari like those in the tree pics you posted and the nursery grown mess of a rootball in the smaller tree and weak-ish top growth. Those tangled roots on the specimen trees are all above the soil line. There were intentionally chosen. In the smaller tree, all the tangle is below the soil line, meaning no one has actually chosen anything, since they're mostly invisible...

Got it, thank you, well explained. I can understand the difference and see how they were neglected and not a design choice.

Nope I recommend also working the roots to improve them, usually theyre planted on a flat tile, after youve splayed them out radially, or as best you can depending on what you have.
then overtime the roots begin to drag out the base of the trunk, you can work them while in the ground periodically or leave them there. but you also will be making trunk chops, once your trunk is a desired thickness, you want taper and movement.

have a look on the bonsai4me website where many of these questions can be answered with detailed descriptions and diagrams/images

Thank you, will check that site, always trying to find information with diagrams and descriptions of what is going on.

 

[BobbyLane]

Got it, thank you, well explained. I can understand the difference and see how they were neglected and not a design choice.



Thank you, will check that site, always trying to find information with diagrams and descriptions of what is going on.

Great attitude! also check out Graham potter on youtube, Harry harrington and Peter warren bonsai channels.
We are also here for any questions, theres lots of great progression threads in the search engine.

 

[giventofly]

Great attitude! also check out Graham potter on youtube, Harry harrington and Peter warren bonsai channels.
We are also here for any questions, theres lots of great progression threads in the search engine.

Already following them
sometimes is kind of hard to find the right threads, I once stumble here on a air layer thread that was awesome

 

[rockm]

Basic repotting, pay attention to how they sort through the root mass.

 

[rockm]

The How To Make a Bonsai vid on Mirai is also worth watching, as it takes a nursery grown tree into design and has some insights about whys and hows.

Education

bonsaimirai.com

 

[giventofly]

Basic repotting, pay attention to how they sort through the root mass.

The How To Make a Bonsai vid on Mirai is also worth watching, as it takes a nursery grown tree into design and has some insights about whys and hows.

Education

bonsaimirai.com

Thanks for the effort, will check them

 

[Shibui]

Elms, and Chinese elm in particular normally grow just a few thick lateral roots. As mentioned the tree pictured is normal for Chinese elms that have not been root pruned. it does not matter whether they have been planted deep or shallow of in more soil or less. Twisted and coiled roots is from not untangling or pruning existing roots when potting on.
To get better nebari with more than just a couple of thick roots the few original roots need to be chopped ruthlessly to promote more lateral roots from the trunk and to get ramification on the few existing roots.

For those who have purchased Chinese elms with roots as above Those thicker, twisted roots make great small trunks when roots like this are used as root cuttings.

 

[BobbyLane]

Elms, and Chinese elm in particular normally grow just a few thick lateral roots. As mentioned the tree pictured is normal for Chinese elms that have not been root pruned. it does not matter whether they have been planted deep or shallow of in more soil or less. Twisted and coiled roots is from not untangling or pruning existing roots when potting on.
To get better nebari with more than just a couple of thick roots the few original roots need to be chopped ruthlessly to promote more lateral roots from the trunk and to get ramification on the few existing roots.

For those who have purchased Chinese elms with roots as above Those thicker, twisted roots make great small trunks when roots like this are used as root cuttings.

would you cut the thick roots back so hard that theres no feeder roots left even?

 

[Shibui]

would you cut the thick roots back so hard that theres no feeder roots left even?

On younger trees like the original trees shown I would indeed. Chinese elms grow easily from stem cuttings with no roots at all so even having short stumps of roots is way ahead of a cutting with none.

 

[giventofly]

Elms, and Chinese elm in particular normally grow just a few thick lateral roots. As mentioned the tree pictured is normal for Chinese elms that have not been root pruned. it does not matter whether they have been planted deep or shallow of in more soil or less. Twisted and coiled roots is from not untangling or pruning existing roots when potting on.
To get better nebari with more than just a couple of thick roots the few original roots need to be chopped ruthlessly to promote more lateral roots from the trunk and to get ramification on the few existing roots.

For those who have purchased Chinese elms with roots as above Those thicker, twisted roots make great small trunks when roots like this are used as root cuttings.

The root cuttings should be all under the substrate or leave a tip outside to grow ?