As Promised, Trainwreck Thread, Foreshortening Good or Bad?

Smoke · Jun 14, 2012

I have seen this done by so many bonsai professionals that it is old hat. Ryan Neil does it, Kimura does it and many other too numerous to add. Is foreshortening by bending cheating or just a way to get done what has to be done. Peter Tea is the master at usuing a branch from the back of a tree and winding the sucker around to the front like a ramp on an Egyptian pyramid!

Yet when an old timer purist sees a tree with this discombobulation at the top of a tree where the apex is made out of five 14 inch long branches like a Donald Trump Combover, they say it looks unnatural.

Is it or does it matter?

I await your answers, in all its trainwreck glory!

Smoke · Jun 14, 2012

Oh and BTW...I wasn't afraid to show mine in those pics......so show um if you got um...

...guess the cats out of the bag on this pine now.....

Ang3lfir3 · Jun 14, 2012

as with many things .... "it depends" ....

by that I mean.... depends on what you think wrong is ... the species of tree we are talking about and what your visual reservoir of images contains.... and of course the implementation

we use foreshortening on many trees because we have to solve the "make it look like a tree" problem with only one branch ... this can sometimes be a common problem on many collected trees ... but I have personally seen trees that themselves have created some crazy examples of this... from nature... so who is to say we are so wrong in doing it ?? ... when does it look wrong..... when its obvious and contrived ... those are the times we should avoid it.... if you are going to do it then make sure you do it in a way that looks natural or at least plausible .... if you can't do that.... get more creative with your design ....

of course that is all personal preference ... it is what I prefer ... I guess I can't speak for everyone else... its an Art after all ....

discussions like this remind me of Fudo ... (http://www.phoenixbonsai.com/FudoMurata.jpg)

edprocoat · Jun 14, 2012

SMOKE !!! How dare you, I mean what a nerve! Where do you get off? How can you imply that with expectation of impunity? What has Donald Trump ever done to you or yours to insult his lovely golden mange, err, mane?

Well you wanted a train wreck dint ya?

On the actual topic, as long as it looks well it should be fine. I know its most peoples attempt to mimic a natural tree, or in reality pull off the look of a real tree in a tiny pot and to that end not much of Bonsai is very natural but can and does appear that way many times, while some of the more odd trees out there actually look very natural, as I have said before here, many trees in nature barely mimic their own species.

For example if you seen this ancient juniper portrayed in Bonsai like this natural form wrought through the effects of harsh environement ypu may either think its an overdone windswept, or a poor done Phoenix graft/Tanuki. I am sure anyone familiar with any of the " rules " or should I say " current accepted conventions " of Bonsai could pick out many flaws in this natural tree.

El Hierro; El Sabinar; Juniperus phoenicea; Jeneverbes; Juniper Tree by jwsteffelaar, on Flickr

ed

TheSteve · Jun 14, 2012

Thanks Al!!!!

Personally I have no problem with it. Too many times it's a necessity to create the apex and it also avoids the need for 14 branches that will have shaded each other out before they can be styled. It needs to be done well and is nearly an art in itself.

TheSteve · Jun 14, 2012

edprocoat said:
SMOKE !!! How dare you, I mean what a nerve! Where do you get off? How can you imply that with expectation of impunity? What has Donald Trump ever done to you or yours to insult his lovely golden mange, err, mane?

Well you wanted a train wreck dint ya?
ed

You're doing it wrong. Watch:

Of course it's okay. I've done it. If anybody thinks it's wrong it's only because their little sticks growing in driveway gravel don't have a branch long enough to do it since they bought them at Safeway. I've been doing bonsai since yesterday and everyone else is an idiot who had to stop and ask for directions during birth. Once they've collected a 75 foot tall fir tree growing out of the side of a cliff in Antarctica they'll understand, until then they're too stupid to post here.

That's how it's done..

Jason · Jun 14, 2012

TheSteve said:
You're doing it wrong. Watch:

Of course it's okay. I've done it. If anybody thinks it's wrong it's only because their little sticks growing in driveway gravel don't have a branch long enough to do it since they bought them at Safeway. I've been doing bonsai since yesterday and everyone else is an idiot who had to stop and ask for directions during birth. Once they've collected a 75 foot tall fir tree growing out of the side of a cliff in Antarctica they'll understand, until then they're too stupid to post here.

That's how it's done..

Well done. It just needs some name calling.

Brian Van Fleet · Jun 14, 2012

I'd say with conifers, it matters less where it came from than where it ends up. With a caveat or two:
1. I don't like seeing a lot of goofy bends, but if the sillouette works and theyre concealed, I'm good.
2. If the ultimate goal is to replace the bent up stuff with shorter growth over time, gradually eliminating the need for big bends. On your pine, you have bent branches all around to make a good profile, but if the profile could be the same without bending branches all over the place, the quality of the tree would be higher. Still love the base on that awaji!

edprocoat · Jun 14, 2012

Jason said:
Well done. It just needs some name calling.

Really, I would expect this from you, you flea bitten scab on a monkeys arse!

Ok, this was simply a joking reply to Jason's post, I have no idea whether he actually has been flea bitten or not.

ed

Smoke · Jun 14, 2012

Brian Van Fleet said:
I'd say with conifers, it matters less where it came from than where it ends up. With a caveat or two:
1. I don't like seeing a lot of goofy bends, but if the sillouette works and theyre concealed, I'm good.
2. If the ultimate goal is to replace the bent up stuff with shorter growth over time, gradually eliminating the need for big bends. On your pine, you have bent branches all around to make a good profile, but if the profile could be the same without bending branches all over the place, the quality of the tree would be higher. Still love the base on that awaji!

Thats pretty much my take as well. I think over time that will be the goal to get rid of those twisted up branches with replacements from newer shorter growth.

Not much of a trainwreck, I expected more opposition.....damn, now I gotta think about this...

milehigh_7 · Jun 14, 2012

Y'all are losing your touch... I was just telling Irene that we just don't seem to fight much anymore...

Smoke · Jun 14, 2012

milehigh_7 said:
Y'all are losing your touch... I was just telling Irene that we just don't seem to fight much anymore...

Tell Irene to send back that picture of me naked on the couch with the dog.......She copped it out of bonsaiTALK chat about 5 years ago....

milehigh_7 · Jun 14, 2012

Smoke said:
Tell Irene to send back that picture of me naked on the couch with the dog.......She copped it out of bonsaiTALK chat about 5 years ago....

LOL I am NOT going to bring up any such picture for fear that I might accidentally see it! *ewwwww*

Smoke · Jun 14, 2012

Double *ewwwwww*

I need a go between....if you know what I mean...

Couldn't find the remote for a week.

Smoke · Jun 14, 2012

My wife coundn't even look at the dog for a month.

BigDave · Jun 14, 2012

milehigh_7 said:
LOL I am NOT going to bring up any such picture for fear that I might accidentally see it! *ewwwww*

Been waiting a long time to relaunch this photo... cover the childrens's eyes

grouper52 · Jun 15, 2012

Got no problem with it.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?2540-Mountain-Hemlock&highlight=mountain+hemlock

Smoke · Jun 15, 2012

Wow, that was before I wore glasses, was about 40 pounds lighter and was collecting hot sauce. Topped out at around 630 bottles.

Fresno bee included us in the paper that year...1995.

Thanks DR

Bill S · Jun 15, 2012

No conflict here I like the list Brian made, not something I would do unless it was to be replaced, but then it could make more sense to lose it early too.

At least the paper wouldn't show the pink whale tail.

berobinson82 · Jun 15, 2012

Bill S said:
No conflict here I like the list Brian made, not something I would do unless it was to be replaced, but then it could make more sense to lose it early too.

At least the paper wouldn't show the pink whale tail.

When I think pink whale tail i think low jeans and a thong...

As Promised, Trainwreck Thread, Foreshortening Good or Bad?

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