Black pine from Telperion farms

jkd2572

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I had a great buying experience with Chris from Telperion Farms. He was fast to respond to emails and very helpful. We finalized the sale today and I should get my tree in a couple of weeks. The pictures below are from Chris. I will update the photos when I receive the tree. Styling advice is very welcome. Look at the base on this guy!;)
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Smoke

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That looks like a really nice tree. Will be nice to watch you grow with it.
 

fore

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I agree whole heartedly! That's a very nice JBP! Can't wait to see it's development!
 

Poink88

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Good score!!! I know it wasn't cheap but worth it. ;) Congrats!
 

jkd2572

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Got it yesterday. Chris did a great job packing and followed up to me ensuring that everything arrived ok. Once again great buying experience.. I will follow up with picks once I get the old needles plucked so we can see what branches to keep. I started today and my fingers are sticking to my iPad. Need to go scrub pine tar off my hands.
 

Alex DeRuiter

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No effing way -- that's awesome info, Brian! And hilarious. lol

Apparently isopropyl alcohol and peanut butter are effective as well.
 

jkd2572

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Yeah I don't have a lot of pines. This is the first black pine for me. I have a white pine grafted on black. I could not believe how much harder the needles are to remove than the white pine. Pics coming. This trunk is great. Every needle I pluck reveals more of it........ And yes I know there is a difference between black and white pine maintenance.
 

cmeg1

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Great looking tree.Your pics' are what inspired me to grow my seedlings and grafts out a lot longer with sacrifice leader.To your time with the tree!
 

jkd2572

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I finally got the needles thinned out. Wow I was happy when I did. I assumed the trunk would have been pretty straight, but it actually has nice movement. The base is huge and spread out. Now I have to go through the mental torture of choosing branches to keep and which to remove. How many can I safely remove without risking the health of the tree? I always heard that black pines don't like too many branches Removed at one time. Any advice on this would be helpful. Please chime in on any ideas. I plan on removing the sacrifice leader stump, just have not done it yet. I don't know why they left it on. If you look real close you can see growth at the top. Maybe they wanted to give me the choice in case I wanted to make the tree taller. Again any design ideas are welcome.
 

garywood

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JD, there is no hurry to remove anything. Once needle thining and candles cut (already have) have started there will be no swelling where more than one branch emerges on the same level for several years if that's what it takes to finalize your design. Work with someone that knows black pine and take your time.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you just removed what should have been kept, and left exactly what should have been removed.

Where are the buds for next year now? All the way out on the ends. Removing this year's candles and preserving last year's needles would have forced back budding in the spring.

This time of year, and this phase of training, the goal is to retain any and all growth closest to the trunk, by removing the distal shoots, leaving the proximal ones to gain strength and grow foliage which is useful to the design because its close to the trunk.

Probably best to stop now and definitely don't remove any more old needles. Early next spring, you can start to prune back the shoots to the buds closest to the trunk.
 

Smoke

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If there is one thing I teach to all people that are willing to put in the time for me to teach them, is to "NOT REMOVE ALL THE GREEN ON BRANCHES AND LEAVE THEM LOOKING LIKE A POODLE"!

OK, I'm done now.....

Carry on.
 

Adair M

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Since the branches are now "naked", go ahead and wire. If you see any tiny back buds, be extra careful not to damage them in the process.

I would keep just about every branch, just wire them out. This will expose the inner wood to the sun, which will help in stimulating back budding.

Fertilize heavily.

Over the winter and next spring, you should see back budding at the places on the old twigs where the candles began.

I hate to say it, but Brian is right. You should have waited until NEXT fall to needle pluck.

Here's why: The active growing buds on the tips (and especially the top of the tree) produce hormones that suppress back budding. Since they're on the end, they're most likely to get good sun exposure, so they want all the strength to go to them. We, as bonsai artists, want restrained growth on the tips, and more in the center, so we have to force the tree to act counter to it's nature. Anyway, by cutting the terminal tips off, those hormone that suppress back budding are gone. So, interior dormant buds can awaken and grow.

This is why decandling works so well for JBP.

One last thing to consider: There are two kinds of buds on JBP. Candles and needle buds. Generally speaking, candles are much, much stronger than needle buds. But, needle buds can grow out and make branches. Pulling needles usually destroys the needle buds as the buds reside between the needle pairs. If you had cut back all of this year's growth, and left all (or most) of last year's growth, you likely would have stimulated a lot of needle budding over the winter. It's kinda scary, but it will work. (I would prefer to do that earlier in the year.)

Given that you are where you are, wire the branches out, give them good sun exposure, and hope you get back budding . I bet you will.
 

jkd2572

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I had a great buying experience with Chris from Telperion Farms. He was fast to respond to emails and very helpful. We finalized the sale today and I should get my tree in a couple of weeks. The pictures below are from Chris. I will update the photos when I receive the tree. Styling advice is very welcome. Look at the base on this guy!;)
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Thanks for all the input. I thought I needed to open up the inside for light to get the back budding.
I will do as you suggest wire and leave all the branches and wait for back budding. I did not know and never read anywhere that you could prune so hard from the ends and get the back budding. I understand the decandling process in mid summer but did not think I could do this in the fall.
 

jkd2572

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Every branch had about 4 to 5 candles on the ends. I cut all of them back to a pair side by side. Hopefully this will also help in back budding. Does anybody think I should not wire? Would I be running a risk of covering up dormant buds by wire? I'm thinking I should go ahead and wire the tree since I have the tree bare. Please let me know what you think. I don't want smoke to all Capps yell at me again. :confused: Smoke I'm trying to learn from you so let me know.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Read this thread for some info on the budding Adair described above:
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7730-New-JBP-Project

and this one for some insight on starting on a tree that was roughly in the same stage of development as yours (your stock is better, because it has more branches on the trunk):

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...-Demo-in-Birmingham-AL&highlight=Peter+warren

I wouldn't recommend wiring now, because wiring will reduce the tree's vigor, and you really want it to respond with strong growth next year (do not repot it either). Though that's just me, I've been at it a while, and have plenty of other trees to work on if one should be left alone.
 
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