New trident

Nybonsai12

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Picked this one up recently. Thoughts?
 

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JudyB

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What does the nebari look like? If you have a good base, then this will be a nice tree.
 

Brian Underwood

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Will make a good formal upright if there is good nebari. If not, air or ground layering is really quite easy, and will greatly improve the tree.
 

jkd2572

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You should read up on air layering. You could have two tridents then. You will have fun as they grow like crazy...
 

Nybonsai12

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From what I felt and saw the nebari looks good. I'll get a pic up when I get a chance. I gave air layering a shot for the first time this year with a Japanese maple I had in my yard. I have so many I chose one that I didn't care if I wasn't successful. It seems to have worked though and recently separated the layer. Hopefully it makes it thought the winter. I have a nicer one I will try on next year. Hopefully is not have to air layer this one as I am excited to work on it rather than wait for an air layer to take.
 

Smoke

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upright now......
 

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Smoke

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Wait a minute....


You guys just bein nice or do you see a good tree?

Please...for this guys sake...please explain your thoughts on the superb attributes on this material...or what you would do to make it the said material.

For me it lacks good taper for it's height, has terrible branching, no nebari and the trunk has a terrible crook in it with a stub moving off in a 45 degree angle as large as the base....

Am I just being a piss ant or have we just all gave up and just say "great buy that will be a great tree".


or....can we still tell someone that they have maybe not purchsed such a diamond in the rough for politically correctness sake.

Sometimes a spade is a shovel.
 

Smoke

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Being that a formal upright has been mentioned, it seems appropriate that the tree could not be used with trunk line moving in the directions of the red lines.

Then the tree would have to be shortened to the point of the first crook, making the tree even shorter with even less taper. The scar would be huge and such a formal style tree should have the least amount of scars as possible.

So this means the kinks could somehow be utilized. Informal tree. The informal part is in the upper third. It is most exaggerated in this view, so to take full advanatge of the movement. Now once again the tree has to be shortened. Except from the top down. This would mean air layering off the top third and using this as a tree with some potential as a larger tree trying to gain taper with successive chops.

Now left with the bottom two thirds. This could be chopped again and utilized for a tree with shorter potential or grown out larger inducing better taper along the way.

Overall, a long project requiring many skills. Not impossible but some long term planning and a good knowledge of the material is needed to get the tree to do "what you want" and not what it wants.

Good luck, tridents are indeed very maleable and can be persuaded to do nearly anything given enough time.

AJK
 

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Brian Van Fleet

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This tree, and Al's assessment reminds me of my J. Beech. I bought it 8 years ago, and am still struggling with the formal lower 2/3 vs informal upper 1/3, and building a decent branch structure.

Good news is that tridents will respond quicker, and big trees are more forgiving, and tridents are fun to work with.
 

Nybonsai12

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So Smoke, you are saying you like it? haha. I appreciate the honesty and thoughts on what to do with the tree. the advice and direction from more experienced people is exactly why i join forums. I'll get more pics up once it is dormant. As with all my trees I am in for the long haul so if it takes a while to get it to it's full potential, that is fine with me. It just means i'll have to scoop up others to keep me busy.
 

Brian Underwood

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Yeah Al, I was trying to ease into the discussion of what needs to be done for maximum potential, but thanks to your bluntness we're already there.

So, I would suggest both layers; top interesting part, and bottom boring part at the soil line. Once the layers take, I think the top part could go into a larger nursery pot, while the bottom could be grown in the ground for a few years.
 

Nybonsai12

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Thanks for the input. I understand the top air layer suggestion, but not layering the portion by the soil line. Are you suggesting that in order to develop nebari?
 

JudyB

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Yes indeed that is what the ground layering idea is for. That is why I asked what the roots looked like, because if you have something going on good under the soil, it can be a nice tree. (which is how I worded my post to begin with)

It'll just need a lot of work and time put into it. But overall, you could wind up with 2 nice trees. I didn't notice the bend in the apex, Smoke is right that it is incongruous with the rest of the tree. But there are a lot of options, and it does look healthy enough to work.
 

Nybonsai12

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Thanks Judy, I figured thats what the idea was, but wasn't sure because I had mentioned thinking the Nebari was ok. Thinking isn't knowing though and I will dig to see everything. As stated, I'll get a pic up of the base along with additional shots once all the leaves have dropped. thanks again.

I'm ok with it taking time. Time I have.
 

Smoke

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My point in this thread is simple.

Bonsai is a time consuming process. If the goal is to make something beautiful in the end, then it only makes sense to start with the easiest piece of material to get there. Simplicity of design counts low on beauty since no one wants to see "another tree with a zig zag trunk and another green helmet".

Contorted trunks and different movement counts much higer on the scale, but it has to be evident within the material as a whole.

This piece of material was started as a bone straight trunk, and then it was allowed to change direction in the last five years addiing some very incongruent problems to deal with with the tree as a unit.

I have purchased tree in the past to only make use of a portion of it, but that is only if I get a tree at a very low price becuase it has seemingly low attributes to begin with. Most of the time I buy a piece of material with the intention to make use of the purchase as a unit.

When I am looking at the material, the tree is purchased with a purpose in mind. i already know what I am going to do and how I am going to get there, how many years it will take and what pot I will need for the future based on the design I have in my mind. That, is what has to be developed as an artist for this hobby to be useful for the future. That is what can be learned from people more advanced in the hobby. The willingness to listen and learn from their mistakes and an acceptance of their body of work as an indicator of what you would like to be in the future.

All a person can do when they come to a forum is ask questions and hope like hell that people that have good information to pass along will answer a post with honest and constructive information allowing you to make an educated effort to either accept it or decline it.

I see "easing" into something as a waste of time. Easing does not improve what we are talking about....the material. It either is, or it isn't.

That can be said in one sentance if you know the difference and have the fortitude to say it.
 
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Brian Underwood

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The main reason I suggest layering the base is because the trunk is SO straight and boring, the nebari will have to be spectacular for the tree to end up being good. Once the layer is separated, I would plant it in the ground, with the roots spread over a round tile or board, with a screw holding it to the base of the tree. This way when the tree grows, the roots are all forced over the tile then grow downwards, eventually creating a fused mass of roots like the ones you see in Kokufu books. This is of course preference, and not everyone likes the "melted cheese nebari" look.

I have a trident that I layered last year; http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...Maple-Project-Defoliation-and-Re-wiring/page4

Even though the movement in the trunk is great, the nebari was lacking, and decided layering was the best option. It will probably be separated next month and grown on a tile in a "rootmaker" pot (I'll post pictures).

AL; I'm actually a fan of brutal honesty but hesitate on occasion for fear of hurt feelings, but it's the internet right? Everyone speaks their mind.
 

Smoke

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AL; I'm actually a fan of brutal honesty but hesitate on occasion for fear of hurt feelings, but it's the internet right? Everyone speaks their mind.

'Bout the last bastion left.......Outside of the forum you could end up in jail?
 

Nybonsai12

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I appreciate honesty brutal or otherwise. I never expected this tree to be a show piece but rather something to both learn and work on. It wasnt expensive. And the comments on what to do as well as what to look for on future trees is helpful.
 

jkd2572

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Don't be discouraged. I have still have my first trident that I have beat the hell out of to se what would happen. Great piece to learn form. See my Frankenstein that's still living image.jpg
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jkd2572

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I'm no trying to improve this tree but instead trying everything I have heard about on it. Poor guy. First tree to defoliate. Saw how far I could bend a branch before breaking. Shouldn't carve deciduous. What ever. You do when you just got a new bit in you ordered from Europe. Ect ect...
You can listen to a lot of advice. Problem is people tend to leave out little details. So then you take advice and it only helps you through your own experience. And of course pushes your own experience further than if you had no advice at all. Just make sure you know that the advice is coming from a respected place. Meaning seek out advice from the most experienced sources.
 
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