A question of choice

Ron Dennis · Nov 15, 2012

Assume please that you are planning a grouping of up to five shohin and/or near-shohin larger trees. Assume you want to build the grouping around an azalea and want to include a Caitlin elm, what other species do you think would best compliment? Assume springtime if the trees were to be exhibited.

I think I am fairly sure of the other three trees but would really like to hear some of your thoughts on choices.

nathanbs · Nov 15, 2012

I envy you for planning the species. I think i would personally try to acquire/accumulate whatever shohin or near shohin sized trees that were great specimens and appropriate for my climate and then worry about displaying them together as a secondary issue. Hunting for specific species and size of trees can be costly, assuming you're critical of their quality. With that said a conifer, either a juniper or pine(make sure they're are not too impressive as they are usually the crown jewel of a 5 point display for their dominance), a maple either trident or Japanese. And whatever else inspires you. Sorry ran out of ideas.

Ron Dennis · Nov 15, 2012

nathanbs said:
I think i would personally try to acquire/accumulate whatever shohin or near shohin sized trees that were great specimens and appropriate for my climate and then worry about displaying them together as a secondary issue.

Thanks much! I really am not concerned with displaying right now but rather am planning ahead. Over the past two years, I have acquired a few trees that I believe are good now or will be good. Looking ahead I want to compliment these with trees that in time will make a nice display at some point. Like the idea of the pine of course and the maple--have actually been checking around for a Japanese maple (have several already but can do better) but have not found the right one.

Long story short, I am trying to be very deliberate in my buying right now rather than buying only to decide it does not fit into longer term goals.

jk_lewis · Nov 15, 2012

I'd say no to a juniper or pine. In a group planting, you MUST select plants that have similar soil and water needs. You already have made it difficult combining an azalea and an elm since azaleas are SO acid loving, and prefer slightly wetter feet than elms. Conifers like pine and juniper generally like the soil on the drier side.

So you should choose a small-leafed holly, a cotoneaster (probably won't grow in Birmingham), or some other small-leafed evergreen (other than a conifer), maybe Chinese privet.

And, I think a five-tree planting with five different trees will look a bit peculiar. Go with your azalea and elm, then use the next three trees of the same species. I'd choose the evergreen holly.

You do realize that the elm will be bare in winter, and may leaf out at some time that's not coincident with what the other plants do in the spring?

Poink88 · Nov 15, 2012

jkl said:
I'd say no to a juniper or pine. In a group planting, you MUST select plants that have similar soil and water needs. You already have made it difficult combining an azalea and an elm since azaleas are SO acid loving, and prefer slightly wetter feet than elms. Conifers like pine and juniper generally like the soil on the drier side.

I think you got confused with the question. He is NOT asking about group planting...rather a group display of independent shohin (if I understood it right).

Ron Dennis · Nov 15, 2012

jkl said:
I'd say no to a juniper or pine. In a group planting, you MUST select plants that have similar soil and water needs. You already have made it difficult combining an azalea and an elm since azaleas are SO acid loving, and prefer slightly wetter feet than elms. Conifers like pine and juniper generally like the soil on the drier side.

So you should choose a small-leafed holly, a cotoneaster (probably won't grow in Birmingham), or some other small-leafed evergreen (other than a conifer), maybe Chinese privet.

And, I think a five-tree planting with five different trees will look a bit peculiar. Go with your azalea and elm, then use the next three trees of the same species. I'd choose the evergreen holly.

You do realize that the elm will be bare in winter, and may leaf out at some time that's not coincident with what the other plants do in the spring?

jkl, Thank you. I did not make my question clear. I am terrible at condensing an idea to a few words. I am referring to an assortment of 5 different trees displayed on a shohin stand such as:

not my stand at least not yet.

JudyB · Nov 15, 2012

I do believe that you are talking about singular trees to be displayed together, but not actually planted together??? That's what I sort of how I read it, although at first I thought you were speaking about planting a forest grouping of differing trees.... If you are planting a forest grouping, then you'll need to follow JKL's guidelines, as the care will need to be consistent to the plants.

If you are talking about a coherent spring display, I'd include a crabapple for sure, as well as a nice spring flowering accent, like snow drops.

JudyB · Nov 15, 2012

Was writing my reply as you cleared that up.... Sorry for the redundancy.

jk_lewis · Nov 15, 2012

Sorry, I did misunderstand.

Starting from the top and working down, a likely arrangement might be:

Top: conifer -- most likely a juniper
Next down -- A deciduous tree (perhaps to be shown without leaves in early spring when the azalea are blooming)
Next level -- perhaps a pine - or an evergreen broadleafed plant like the holly.
Bottom 2 trees, the azalea and the other tree from above.

There are other arrangements; this is arranged as if the display were a mountainside. The Japanese probably would only insist that the juniper be on top.

Brian Van Fleet · Nov 15, 2012

Check out this thread, post 44 and down for some looks at shohin rack choices. There are very specific principles, if you're trying to be "authentic". Grow what grows well in the area, so junipers, black pines, azaleas, trident maple, Chinese quince, crab, ilex are all valid choices.

Looking forward to seeing a great display next spring!

nathanbs · Nov 15, 2012

i tried to accommodate the fact that you want the azalea as your top or main tree. You will find for reasons of power/dominance and/or top of the mountain, bottom of the mountain that a conifer(usually a strong black pine) traditionally is the mainstay of a shohin 5-point display. But be creative if you want your azalea to be than pick trees that size, style and color compliment your azalea. Bend the rules but do a good job and you'll likely be commended instead of criticized. A twisty juniper doesn't necessarily qualify as a top tree but perhaps second level. In case you were wondering. Just my opinion.

stacy allen muse · Nov 15, 2012

?????????????

aidan13 · Nov 15, 2012

I am hardly experienced in things such as tree selection, but perhaps a Seiju Elm would compliment the image you are trying to create?

BigDave · Nov 15, 2012

good stuff here on the subject

http://www.shohin-europe.com/DISPLAYartickles-coloursinthe-display.htm

JudyB · Nov 16, 2012

BigDave said:
good stuff here on the subject

http://www.shohin-europe.com/DISPLAYartickles-coloursinthe-display.htm

nice link, thanks Dave.

Poink88 · Nov 16, 2012

BigDave said:
good stuff here on the subject

http://www.shohin-europe.com/DISPLAYartickles-coloursinthe-display.htm

And the book is on sale for $9.95 right now at StoneLantern...
http://www.stonelantern.com/Shohin_Bonsai_how_to_bonsai_tree_book_p/b1shohin.htm

Ron Dennis · Nov 16, 2012

JudyB said:
I do believe that you are talking about singular trees to be displayed together, but not actually planted together??? That's what I sort of how I read it, although at first I thought you were speaking about planting a forest grouping of differing trees.... If you are planting a forest grouping, then you'll need to follow JKL's guidelines, as the care will need to be consistent to the plants.

If you are talking about a coherent spring display, I'd include a crabapple for sure, as well as a nice spring flowering accent, like snow drops.

Judy, I like the thought of a crab. In fact, I have asked a nurseryman who expects a qualtiy supply in the spring to hold one for me. However, Ihad not tought of including a crab in the thought of trees for this project. Time to rethink!

Ron Dennis · Nov 16, 2012

Brian Van Fleet said:
Check out this thread, post 44 and down for some looks at shohin rack choices. There are very specific principles, if you're trying to be "authentic". Grow what grows well in the area, so junipers, black pines, azaleas, trident maple, Chinese quince, crab, ilex are all valid choices.

Looking forward to seeing a great display next spring!

Thanks, Brian. This is one of the things I had wanted to discuss with you when I mentioned the azalea to you.

With a lot of luck and work, we may have at least a partial display by spring--probably not the entire five. I was really thinking this project would take more like 3-4 years to be really ready. I promise not to be to much of a pest to you!

Ron Dennis · Nov 16, 2012

nathanbs said:
i tried to accommodate the fact that you want the azalea as your top or main tree. You will find for reasons of power/dominance and/or top of the mountain, bottom of the mountain that a conifer(usually a strong black pine) traditionally is the mainstay of a shohin 5-point display. But be creative if you want your azalea to be than pick trees that size, style and color compliment your azalea. Bend the rules but do a good job and you'll likely be commended instead of criticized. A twisty juniper doesn't necessarily qualify as a top tree but perhaps second level. In case you were wondering. Just my opinion.

I appreciate your comments. The azalea does not have to be the primary tree. I acquired an azalea, needing a little refinement, that I really like and am excited to have. I just want this tree in this little project. I also have a Caitlin that I really like and I have several other trees that might be candidates.

I am studying how and also planning to assemble a display with trees that compliment each other without overpowering each other.

Again, thank you for your suggestions and comments. I appreciate you and all taking time to try to educate and help me.

Ron Dennis · Nov 16, 2012

stacy allen muse said:
Ron

going back to the original question of what type of plant
you might add to those that you already have...

You might try a boxwood. They always make a really nice shohin.

Stacy,

Thanks so much. I do have a Kingsville I am working on but do not think it is quite there yet. But maybe with a little extra work. . . .

Hope your weekend at Wigerts was a big success.

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