Bald Cypress knees

Desert Dweller

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Hello everyone,

Iwant to know if anyone has any suggestions about how to develop or encourage knee formation in Bald Cypresses.

I have one which is 10-15 years old I would like to develop knees on. I have thought about partially submerging it in a pan of water in order to simulate a swamp condition, but I am not sure about doing that.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Bald Cypress.JPG
 

JudyB

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I do not know of any way to stimulate knees to grow. I myself have one in a pot for years now, that I keep submerged for the most part (I plugged the drainhole), and it hasn't made any. I have a natural grove I planted 20? years ago, in a pasture, and they have knees. They live in a moist spot, but it's not underwater by any means. Many before you have asked this question, and I've not seen an answer to it yet. Although I know that some people do have them on their trees. Maybe you have to collect them that way.
 

Poink88

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There are several threads about that here and based on what I can recall...many tried different things and only a handful seen someone grow "real" knees in container grown BC.

Good luck and if you find a way...I (as many others) would love to learn how also. :)
 

jk_lewis

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You'll seldom, if ever, get knees in a potted bald cypress.
 

rockm

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There is no tried and true way to force a BC to produce knees in a container, from what I've seen. Some say it's easy and post pictures to prove it. But those photos are not all that common.

I'd say that BC that produce knees while containerized are few and very far between. I've never seen knees on BC bonsai in person, nor seen any evidence of my own BC bonsai, which I've been growing for over 15 years, produce any sign of them.
 

Zach Smith

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Hello everyone,

Iwant to know if anyone has any suggestions about how to develop or encourage knee formation in Bald Cypresses.

I have one which is 10-15 years old I would like to develop knees on. I have thought about partially submerging it in a pan of water in order to simulate a swamp condition, but I am not sure about doing that.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
If you decide to submerge in an attempt to get knee formation, be sure to change out your water frequently. The roots need oxygen, which readily diffuses into broad expanses of water but which is quickly used up in a small setting such as a tub.

Good luck. Nice looking BC.

Zach
 

Zach Smith

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There is no tried and true way to force a BC to produce knees in a container, from what I've seen. Some say it's easy and post pictures to prove it. But those photos are not all that common.

I'd say that BC that produce knees while containerized are few and very far between. I've never seen knees on BC bonsai in person, nor seen any evidence of my own BC bonsai, which I've been growing for over 15 years, produce any sign of them.
I collected one this year that has a knee-like protrusion on one of the buttressing roots. I'm calling it a "shoulder." Pretty cool feature.

Years ago I collected a BC that had a small knee on one of the buttressing roots. I don't think that one survived collecting, but it was visually neat. It had been growing in about a foot and a half of standing water.

Zach
 

nathanbs

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bald1.jpg

This one is believed to have grown its knees when it outgrew its black plastic nursery can. The roots grew out of the bottom of the can and the knees actually grew on the outside of the can. At some point the tree was literally busting out of the can and the can was removed all but a piece that was wedged in between the trunk and the knees.
 

rockm

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FWIW, bald cypress grows IN water because it can, not necessarily because it wants to. Most serious bald cypress bonsai folks recommend NOT submerging the roots, because plunking a tree in a tub of water DOES NOT simulate swamp conditions. Water in swamps moves and circulates--albeit slowly, but it does move. Water in a tub doesn't. It staganates and becomes anaerobic, not a good thing for roots. Water in a container also heats up VERY quickly, which also drives out more oxygen. Swamp muck is deep and cool, not hot.
 

Zach Smith

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FWIW, bald cypress grows IN water because it can, not necessarily because it wants to. Most serious bald cypress bonsai folks recommend NOT submerging the roots, because plunking a tree in a tub of water DOES NOT simulate swamp conditions. Water in swamps moves and circulates--albeit slowly, but it does move. Water in a tub doesn't. It staganates and becomes anaerobic, not a good thing for roots. Water in a container also heats up VERY quickly, which also drives out more oxygen. Swamp muck is deep and cool, not hot.
Good point. I think it's also correct that bald cypress can only re-seed in a constantly wet/moist environment, which perpetuates the life cycle in the swamps. I've never seen a dry land-bound cypress sprout seedlings, but I can collect hundreds from a landscape-planted (high and dry) tree and germinate almost all of them. If anyone has information about dry land-bound BC's producing seedlings, please post as I would be interested to know.

Zach
 

berobinson82

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There is no tried and true way to force a BC to produce knees in a container, from what I've seen. Some say it's easy and post pictures to prove it. But those photos are not all that common.

I'd say that BC that produce knees while containerized are few and very far between. I've never seen knees on BC bonsai in person, nor seen any evidence of my own BC bonsai, which I've been growing for over 15 years, produce any sign of them.

I was at the arboretum last weekend (the benches are only half full still...) and I recall seeing a BC with a big knee right in front. I took about 100 shots that day and now I'm kicking myself for missing that one. I don't know the story of that BC but maybe you'll be able to check it out on the 4th.
 

Zach Smith

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I was at the arboretum last weekend (the benches are only half full still...) and I recall seeing a BC with a big knee right in front. I took about 100 shots that day and now I'm kicking myself for missing that one. I don't know the story of that BC but maybe you'll be able to check it out on the 4th.

If it was Vaughn Banting's flat top, the knee was created by wiring up a root (long, long ago).

Zach
 

rockm

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The Banting flat top BC at the arb does have a knee, but As Zach said it's not a naturally-occurring one. If you look closely at it, you will see it is a root loop (not a froot loop -- hey, I'm a poet and don't even know it):D
 

johng

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I tend to agree with everything that has been said...especially the watching the temp. of tub water in the summer. I was shocked to read temps of well over 100 degrees last summer with the air temp only in the 90's. Shading the tub can help a lot with this problem.

I have often thought about pumping water from the koi pond into a large shallow pool with lots of cypress and then letting it gravity feed/overflow back to the main pond. I think this would be an ideal way to grow them submersed. But, I think there is more to it than just growing submersed.

I also wonder if letting your tree get root bound or worse helps to encourage the growth of knees?? (as i think Nathan may have been suggesting) I can't personally produce the evidence to support this, but it appears that in most of the situations, knees are first created when the tree(s) is very root bound.


any thoughts...is being root bound necessary before knees are created?

oh...and there has been plenty of anaerobic "rotten eggs" going on in the roots of every cypress I have ever collected in the swamp...its certainly a part of their natural environment...which still doesn't mean its something you want in container culture.

John
 
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Zach Smith

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I tend to agree with everything that has been said...especially the watching the temp. of tub water in the summer. I was shocked to read temps of well over 100 degrees last summer with the air temp only in the 90's. Shading the tub can help a lot with this problem.

I have often thought about pumping water from the koi pond into a large shallow pool with lots of cypress and then letting it gravity feed/overflow back to the main pond. I think this would be an ideal way to grow them submersed. But, I think there is more to it than just growing submersed.

I also wonder if letting your tree get root bound or worse helps to encourage the growth of knees?? (as i think Nathan may have been suggesting) I can't personally produce the evidence to support this, but it appears that in most of the situations, knees are first created when the tree(s) is very root bound.


any thoughts...is being root bound necessary before knees are created?

oh...and there has been plenty of anaerobic "rotten eggs" going on in the roots of every cypress I have ever collected in the swamp...its certainly a part of their natural environment...which still doesn't mean its something you want in container culture.

John
Years ago I had a book on the species bald cypress (I may have it packed away somewhere, it got misplaced in a move). I recall a section discussing the purpose of the knees, which cited the research that had been done. The potential purposes (as I recall) were 1) to help stabilize the tree; 2) to allow the roots to breathe, since in the swamps they're always under water; or 3) the relatively unobvious, food storage. Reason number 1 was easily dispensed with, since there are many examples of mature bald cypresses without knees that haven't fallen over. Reason 2, which sounds very plausible, was dispelled by testing gas exchange potential and proving that it is negligible. Reason 3 was explored by testing for starch content in the knee tissues. Of the three possible reasons, this one tested most likely but I don't believe the researchers felt comfortable making an absolute determination.

So we don't know why the bald cypress produces knees, but we do know they are really awesome!

Zach
 

markyscott

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Years ago I had a book on the species bald cypress (I may have it packed away somewhere, it got misplaced in a move). I recall a section discussing the purpose of the knees, which cited the research that had been done. The potential purposes (as I recall) were 1) to help stabilize the tree; 2) to allow the roots to breathe, since in the swamps they're always under water; or 3) the relatively unobvious, food storage. Reason number 1 was easily dispensed with, since there are many examples of mature bald cypresses without knees that haven't fallen over. Reason 2, which sounds very plausible, was dispelled by testing gas exchange potential and proving that it is negligible. Reason 3 was explored by testing for starch content in the knee tissues. Of the three possible reasons, this one tested most likely but I don't believe the researchers felt comfortable making an absolute determination.

So we don't know why the bald cypress produces knees, but we do know they are really awesome!

Zach


Perhaps?: Baldcypress: The tree unique, the wood eternal, Brown, C.A. And Montz, G.A., 1986, Claitor's Publishing Division, Baton Rouge LA.

Scott
 

Mellow Mullet

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My Dad has one. He grows bald cypress from seed. You can see them at www.bnjl.com .

481LargeCypress-Aug09.jpg

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He puts it in a tub of water in the summer, doesn't change it out other than filling it up when it gets low. Root bound? Yes, but that is not uncommon for this kind of tree, it can get root bound in one season, they are beasts when it comes to growth.
 

Poink88

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View attachment 34390

View attachment 34394

He puts it in a tub of water in the summer, doesn't change it out other than filling it up when it gets low. Root bound? Yes, but that is not uncommon for this kind of tree, it can get root bound in one season, they are beasts when it comes to growth.

Awesome! :cool: Thanks for sharing. :)
 

edprocoat

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Concerning knees on BC, years ago as a young man I seen a container grown BC with several knees. It was by no means a bonsai, the man kept it topped and trimmed at about 15 feet tall, it was in a koi pond/fountain. He had tropical fish and the tree was growing in the center in what looked like a chest that had been cemented over or stucco covered. It may have been just cement formed to look like an old pirate chest too, the whole thing had green moss growing on it from the water bubbling up and over it and the mist from the fountain keeping it wet it was about 6 feet wide by 4 feet across and about 4 feet deep, I seem to remember he said the tree was 10 years old or so. It would have to be a great growing environment for a water capable tree like BC as the water being circulated plus the moss and aquatic plants adding oxygen to the water and probably the fish waste being like a fertilizer.

ed
 
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