Mugo...finally got one

coh · Jul 15, 2013

All the talk about mugo pines has got me interested in the species, so I've been keeping an eye out for potential specimens. A couple of days ago I wandered into a garden center that was having a 50% off sale. They had about 6 mugos...one caught my eye immediately as it looked a little larger and healthier than the others. Through the mass of needles it looked like there might be some kind of trunk or larger base but it was hard to see. I tried pulling the plant out of the pot but it was wedged in too tight. Tried scratching around the top of the soil, feeling for the trunk or roots, but the "soil" was way too thick. For the price, though, I figured I'd just give it a shot.

Got it home and out of the pot (required prying with a screwdriver). The root mass was very thick and dry. So I made some holes through the root system with the screwdriver, and put the roots into a bucket of water for a little while to see if I could loosen up the roots. First photo - before the carnage. Typical mugo ball of green:

I cut off the bottom 1/3 or so of the root ball and combed out the sides a bit, then started on the top...looking for the base and surface roots. I found a fairly wide base, about 3.25 inches across (between the red lines), but I haven't been able to uncover the main surface roots. I've worked into the root system quite a bit more than I intended and am not sure if I should dig in any further. If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. Should I stop messing with the roots at this point, or keep going until I uncover the main roots?

Otherwise, I will do some top pruning to remove unnecessary branches (none removed yet) and let some light into the plant. The structure seems to suggest that a cascade or semi-cascade style might ultimately be the way to go. Using the above view, something like this quick sketch comes to mind:

For completeness, I'll add a photo from the other side. A twin trunk approach might also work:

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance from a mugo pine newbie

Chris

Jason_mazzy · Jul 15, 2013

Vance, your assistance please.

Paradox · Jul 15, 2013

Its working Vance, these mugos seem to be becoming a trend!

Looks like you could have a nice tree there.

(Lets see if Ive read enough of Vance's posts and done enough of these to this point to get this right)

IIRC, You probably dont want to take out more than about a third of the roots.

Cut about 1/3 of the foliage and remember to leave stumps on the branches you cut for a year or 2 (forgot exactly why but I think he said it can cause death of the corresponding trunk and/or roots).

If it seems strong next summer you can do some more pruning of the branches.

Take your time and dont do too much at once.

Im probably forgetting something but Im sure Vance will be along to remind me.

fore · Jul 16, 2013

Huge base on that one Chris, very nice find! And consider yourself lucky it wasn't a B&B tree LOL I'd also go slow Chris. 2 yrs ago, I bought a cheap Mugo to try, cut 1/3 roots off and some branch pruning, it died. But I did the work in the spring so maybe that was the death nail?? Good Luck!!

Chris

coh · Jul 16, 2013

Thanks for your thoughts. I have read through many of the previous threads on mugos. I recall that in a recent post Vance had commented about needing to be more specific about some things, but he hasn't logged on for a couple of days. Hopefully things are OK with him.

I've decided to go ahead and repot as is without doing any more root work. I think I've already gone a bit past the 1/3 root removal point so probably best to be as safe as possible at this point. We'll see what happens.

Chris

will0911 · Jul 16, 2013

This is just my thought, and consider i don't work with conifers really. I would work towards getting it down to the one big base and work on removing that other trunk that has acted as a sacrifice branch for the main thick trunk. A twin trunk would like nice but i think removing that smaller trunk, and bringing the foliage in would enhance that trunk and make it look bigger. But, again, I'm not sure how long that would take. I do see a lot of paths you could go with this tree which is a plus. Always nice to have options! Great find. Soe people say you can't find really good pre bonsai like this but I say different.

KennedyMarx · Jul 16, 2013

Great base! You really lucked out. I always think of Vance's advice to really dig in and feel with your fingers when looking for decent nursery stock material. I've been looking for a decent mugo, but I'm afraid all the places around here have marked them down and moved them out already this year.

Vance Wood · Jul 16, 2013

fore said:
Huge base on that one Chris, very nice find! And consider yourself lucky it wasn't a B&B tree LOL I'd also go slow Chris. 2 yrs ago, I bought a cheap Mugo to try, cut 1/3 roots off and some branch pruning, it died. But I did the work in the spring so maybe that was the death nail?? Good Luck!!

Chris

At this point I would reduce everything on the top by about 50% provided you are cutting back to an active small branch. The temptation at this point is to expose the trunk and eliminate a lot of close in branches. However with the picture you have posted a smaller tree seems to be the way to go. If you have a larger pond basket put the tree in it and let it alone for awhile.

In the beginning most Mugos start out by being sheared continually to keep the tree growing in a mound. When you seek to make a bonsai out of them you have to change the previous set up growing pattern.

october · Jul 16, 2013

Vance, this is a sort of old question. However, when this mugo or any for that matter, are in their final stages of development. I believe you said that you DO decandle and then it back buds like a black pine, correct?

Rob

coh · Jul 16, 2013

Thanks for the additional thoughts and suggestions. I reduced the top by about 1/3 and will look at it again tomorrow. The problem is that there really are very few "active small branches". Most of the "tree" is made of branches that are bare for 4-6" with all the branching and foliage way out at the ends. I expect it's going to take a while to compact this thing. I have left a couple of potential new leaders that could be used to extend the trunk if I'm not able to get the thing to back bud.

Now we wait...see if it survives all the root work. Felt very strange to be doing this kind of work at this time of year!

Chris

Vance Wood · Jul 17, 2013

october said:
Vance, this is a sort of old question. However, when this mugo or any for that matter, are in their final stages of development. I believe you said that you DO decandle and then it back buds like a black pine, correct?

Rob

At this poiint you are drastically cutting back branches. You don't think about decandeling until you start getting some ramification vigorous enough to decandle. I have found that it takes roughly two growing seasons before things develop enough that decandeling becomes an option.

october · Jul 17, 2013

Vance Wood said:
At this poiint you are drastically cutting back branches. You don't think about decandeling until you start getting some ramification vigorous enough to decandle. I have found that it takes roughly two growing seasons before things develop enough that decandeling becomes an option.

Thanks Vance. I just wanted to verify that decandling was done on mugos and that it was not like a white pine where decandling is not done.

Rob

Vance Wood · Jul 18, 2013

coh said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I have read through many of the previous threads on mugos. I recall that in a recent post Vance had commented about needing to be more specific about some things, but he hasn't logged on for a couple of days. Hopefully things are OK with him.

I've decided to go ahead and repot as is without doing any more root work. I think I've already gone a bit past the 1/3 root removal point so probably best to be as safe as possible at this point. We'll see what happens.

Chris

Sorry; the passing of my mother and the associated ubiquitous mountain of paper work, requiring the attention of three people in three states from Michigan to California getting together to sign said paper work and settling a small estate with big problems. This obviously has kept me busy, as well as preoccupied, not to mention the time to travel some distance to accomplish the above.

Vance Wood · Jul 18, 2013

coh said:
All the talk about mugo pines has got me interested in the species, so I've been keeping an eye out for potential specimens. A couple of days ago I wandered into a garden center that was having a 50% off sale. They had about 6 mugos...one caught my eye immediately as it looked a little larger and healthier than the others. Through the mass of needles it looked like there might be some kind of trunk or larger base but it was hard to see. I tried pulling the plant out of the pot but it was wedged in too tight. Tried scratching around the top of the soil, feeling for the trunk or roots, but the "soil" was way too thick. For the price, though, I figured I'd just give it a shot.

Got it home and out of the pot (required prying with a screwdriver). The root mass was very thick and dry. So I made some holes through the root system with the screwdriver, and put the roots into a bucket of water for a little while to see if I could loosen up the roots. First photo - before the carnage. Typical mugo ball of green:

View attachment 38591

I cut off the bottom 1/3 or so of the root ball and combed out the sides a bit, then started on the top...looking for the base and surface roots. I found a fairly wide base, about 3.25 inches across (between the red lines), but I haven't been able to uncover the main surface roots. I've worked into the root system quite a bit more than I intended and am not sure if I should dig in any further. If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. Should I stop messing with the roots at this point, or keep going until I uncover the main roots?

View attachment 38592

Otherwise, I will do some top pruning to remove unnecessary branches (none removed yet) and let some light into the plant. The structure seems to suggest that a cascade or semi-cascade style might ultimately be the way to go. Using the above view, something like this quick sketch comes to mind:

View attachment 38593

For completeness, I'll add a photo from the other side. A twin trunk approach might also work:

View attachment 38594

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance from a mugo pine newbie

Chris

The tree has obvious potential. You have done well in selecting a tree with a large base. The choice of what to do as far as design is concerned is entirely yours. However; if the tree were mine I would reject the idea of trying to make a double trunk bonsai out of it. There are a lot of secondary branches growing close to the base of the trunk that will have to be eliminated, the question is which ones.

That issue does not have to be dealt with today but as the tree starts to produce new growth take note what is going on. If you have generally cut back the top as I mentioned in an earlier post you should start seeing new buds starting to form along the more exposed branches. When this happens we can start examining what small branches to eliminate.

coh · Jul 18, 2013

Vance Wood said:
Sorry; the passing of my mother and the associated ubiquitous mountain of paper work, requiring the attention of three people in three states from Michigan to California getting together to sign said paper work and settling a small estate with big problems. This obviously has kept me busy, as well as preoccupied, not to mention the time to travel some distance to accomplish the above.

Sorry to hear this. I dealt with the same thing a few years ago, though my parents' estate didn't really have too many problems. Nevertheless, my brother in law and I did have to spend about a month cleaning out and fixing up the house for sale.

Chris

coh · Jul 18, 2013

Vance Wood said:
The tree has obvious potential. You have done well in selecting a tree with a large base. The choice of what to do as far as design is concerned is entirely yours. However; if the tree were mine I would reject the idea of trying to make a double trunk bonsai out of it. There are a lot of secondary branches growing close to the base of the trunk that will have to be eliminated, the question is which ones.

That issue does not have to be dealt with today but as the tree starts to produce new growth take note what is going on. If you have generally cut back the top as I mentioned in an earlier post you should start seeing new buds starting to form along the more exposed branches. When this happens we can start examining what small branches to eliminate.

Thanks again for your thoughts (especially considering the circumstances). Twin trunk is not my first choice but I am preserving the option. How the tree responds will help determine the future course. I left most of the lower branches and thinned out the outer growth a fair amount. My main concern is that I may have worked the roots too much...once I got in there I kind of kept going. So the first order of business is to see if it survives, or if it loses a bunch of branches.

Chris

marc206 · Jul 23, 2013

mugo

I have found that the mugos in one gallon containers to be easier to work with. The bigger containers seem to have a lot of radical growth everywhere. The one gallons seem to have one trunk with a lot less branching.

coh · Jul 31, 2013

Here's a photo of what's left after all the work I did. I removed about half of the top growth. Some branches were eliminated completely, others were cut back as far as possible to active smaller branches. I tried to open up the canopy as much as seemed reasonable. Most of what was there was pretty leggy so if I don't manage to get a lot of backbudding, this may never work.

A couple of days after repotting I knocked the pot partway over and a bunch of soil came out. Just some additional trauma. Between that and all the intentional root work I did, I won't be terribly surprised if this one doesn't make it...we'll see.

Chris

fore · Jul 31, 2013

Fingers crossed Chris

Vance Wood · Jul 31, 2013

coh said:
Here's a photo of what's left after all the work I did. I removed about half of the top growth. Some branches were eliminated completely, others were cut back as far as possible to active smaller branches. I tried to open up the canopy as much as seemed reasonable. Most of what was there was pretty leggy so if I don't manage to get a lot of backbudding, this may never work.

A couple of days after repotting I knocked the pot partway over and a bunch of soil came out. Just some additional trauma. Between that and all the intentional root work I did, I won't be terribly surprised if this one doesn't make it...we'll see.

Chris

View attachment 39310

I wouldn't be surprised if it did. The reason I started doing Mugos in the middle of the summer after I realized they were all surviving from demonstrations I was doing using my own material and after some pretty extreme measures.

Mugo...finally got one

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