$100 Japanese Maple

coh

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Did something happen to the pics in the first post? I can't see them anymore, would like to take another look...
 

drew33998

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Did something happen to the pics in the first post? I can't see them anymore, would like to take another look...

They have been removed to save me the embarrassment and also so no one can offer me advice on styling further. I will apply what I can to the material and see what it turns out to be in the coming years. Maybe dead. Who knows.
 

coh

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I don't see the point of removing the pictures. We're all (well, most of us) here to learn and now everything written in the thread has no context.

Chris
 

Brian Van Fleet

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So, maybe it's time to again look at characteristics of "good" material. For a $100 Japanese maple, here is a good wish list. At $100, it's not realistic to get all of the characteristics, but in order of importance, here is what I'd be looking for:


1. No graft.
2. A radial nebari (actual, lignified roots showing some bark, and with few gaps) starting. It will not be perfect, but flaws should be fixable, minimal, and towards one side that can become the back. Work toward this goal usually means its in a shallow container too.
3. Scar-free trunk, or scars healing enough to know they will close. (It's hard to get 4&5 without this, but scars should be concealed and healing).
4. Some taper, and no reverse taper.
5. Some movement, graceful not awkward.
6. Primary branches emerging at roughly aesthetically appropriate places...outside of bends, alternating up the tree.


The order of the list is really how a bonsai is built...and the order is important; it's harder to develop a nice trunk then go back and start over on the nebari.

Notice the absence of size here. Often, for the same money, it's necessary to trade down in size from nursery stock for better bonsai development.


As an example, and I really have no desire to sell this tree, but this is a reasonable Japanese maple pre-bonsai in that $100-150 price range (sans pot). Good, radial nebari forming on its own roots, trunk scars healing nicely, some taper and movement, alternating branches emerging from appropriate locations (because I grafted most of them on).


Hope this helps illustrate the differences people were trying to point out between nursery stock and stock developed specifically for bonsai.
 

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Lazylightningny

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Here's what I get out of this thread and many others I've seen in the short time I've been a member of this site: a beginner like myself posts a query or photo, and is immediately jumped on by a host of other members. I have to tell you, it's quite intimidating, and sets a negative tone on the site. We are beginners, and hope to lean on the senior members for some guidance to help set us on the right path, but instead we find aggressive posts that seem to want to thwart our love for trees and bonsai. We don't all have access to local clubs and mentors. I would think that you would like to foster our wonder and excitement, but instead nearly every thread is full of rebuttals and flaming.

A guy posts some pics of a tree he would love to train into something that might some day resemble a bonsai. Sure, it's not going to be up to snuff, but we're trying. And some of you knock him down immediately for not knowing what he wants to do with it. Well of course he doesn't know. That's why he's looking for guidance. He (we) will get it after awhile, but we need some reassurance and help. So I'm asking, please, be more understanding.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening.
 

Redwood Ryan

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Is it just me or is anyone else getting "Invalid Attachment specified" when trying to view the pictures. I want to see the tree that's causing so much discussion :confused:
 

Smoke

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How do you feel about people bringing material to a workshop and having it styled by a professional? That would have to be totally unacceptable to you, right? How about someone with more experience than you in your bonsai club looking at your tree with you to help make some decisions? Totally unacceptable as well? I do see your point, however I was unaware that it made the senior bonsai guys like you angry to help out new guys. I will try to refrain from doing so.

Obviously the point was lost on you. Rather than ask the real question it is much easier in a forum to attack the posters words rather than answer them. Its a place where people can say and do as they want without repercussion.


The real question is:

"I am new to bonsai and I wish to buy some things. I might like to have a nice maple bonsai, what should I be looking for when I go to the nursery. What should I pass by as being too hard to work with?"

You would get many, many replies from many people on what to look for. After you have read those replies it is up to you to look for what was offered as advice and take it...

or refuse it and just buy what you want. Don't expect people to praise a below standard piece of material that was purchased for $100.00.

Brian has offered you a good list of things to look for, in hindsight. My offering was based on how the original post was offered, "here is my purchase what should I do with it"?


Much like the clay. Don't take it personal, no one is talking about you. We are talking about your tree.
 

Redwood Ryan

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Aaaaand I just read a few posts above mine as to where the pictures went, it really has been a long day :eek:
 

Smoke

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Here's what I get out of this thread and many others I've seen in the short time I've been a member of this site: a beginner like myself posts a query or photo, and is immediately jumped on by a host of other members. I have to tell you, it's quite intimidating, and sets a negative tone on the site. We are beginners, and hope to lean on the senior members for some guidance to help set us on the right path, but instead we find aggressive posts that seem to want to thwart our love for trees and bonsai. We don't all have access to local clubs and mentors. I would think that you would like to foster our wonder and excitement, but instead nearly every thread is full of rebuttals and flaming.

A guy posts some pics of a tree he would love to train into something that might some day resemble a bonsai. Sure, it's not going to be up to snuff, but we're trying. And some of you knock him down immediately for not knowing what he wants to do with it. Well of course he doesn't know. That's why he's looking for guidance. He (we) will get it after awhile, but we need some reassurance and help. So I'm asking, please, be more understanding.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening.

I don't think thats the case at all. Beginners have to act like beginners and have some respect. Your not standing in a line at McDonalds waiting for your Big Mac thats considered "fast food"

I can't tell you how many times, even on this forum in the past month how many people have posted something and after 24 hours make a second post with a sarcastic remark about "why has no one helped me" or "Is my tree not good enough for comments"

To make a nice maple, a person needs to look for trees that have a trunk that can be minipulated easily into either a moyogi form (informal upright) and its cousins, or a modified broom or spreading oak form. Thats pretty much it. None of them start with a slingshot but both of them start with a single trunk. Thats crumb number one.
 

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iant

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My issue with the question was that it's unanswerable. How can we give advice to someone when we have no idea what style of tree they want to grow and how much time they're willing to invest? Smoke's analogy with the clay was really spot on. Before people ask where to go with a tree it would be really helpful to know what style they're shooting for and what timeline they're thinking.
That being said I do empathize with the notion of putting up a question and getting shot down. Last summer I posted a very specific question about a Japanese white pine that I had bought from Telperion and the first several replies were: "That doesn't look like a white pine to me... Your needles are too long for that to be JWP... I see you have a drip system, you're probably overwatering." (In reality the drip system was a backup that I had never used... and I have plenty of faith in Chris's ability to sell me a tree that's the right species...) But nobody (other than Gary in a PM) actually offered advice on my question. Thanks Gary!
I do think it's a lot easier to play detective with photos and take pop shots at people's trees than it is to offer them real advice.
But if you're going to post a question as general as "where should I go with this?" it's VERY helpful for people to know a little more about what YOUR thoughts are on where you'd like to go.
Ian
 

Paradox

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The OP DID offer a few thoughts as to where he might go with the tree, but I think all that got ignored in the ensuing discussion.

Drew, dont let this discourage you from posting trees in the future (although I understand why you might be). Use this as a learning tree. Understand that it will probably never be great material and it might take a very long time for it to even be halfway decent material. If you like what you end up with then that is all that matters in the end. Im sure many of us still have one or more of the first trees we started with out of sentimental value if nothing else.

Learn how to keep it alive and happy first.

Things you could do next spring: Pick one from the list to do every year. If you do more than one in a year, you could kill the tree.
1. Repot it into a better training pot/box and let it grow another year
2. Remove one of the trunks next year via an air layer if you want. The air layer might not live but you wont know unless you try.
3. prune some height off of it and see how it responds to pruning
 
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pmalelis

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I too posted a maple that I purchased that, hell I don't know if it is good bonsai material. But yes I have read a lot over a couple yrs before I appeared here on the forum and posted my project starts. I paid 20 bucks for 1.5" caliper. I knew about graft scars and nebari enough apply a tourniquet above the graft to create better nebari. I wanted to create taper and movement so i planted it in ground planning chops over a series of years. However without input of "peers" I may miss out on options that being inexperienced would limit me to. Hope I too wasnt one of "those" people buying garabage and posting it :)
 

Poink88

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I post lots of "garbage" stuff but learn from them and love them all the same. Come time to purge, admittedly, the less favored will go first. (Please note, that is not the case with the recent auction. The reason that had to go is my wintering situation.)

Buying the wrong stuff is part of the NORMAL learning curve and eagerness to get started. I see nothing wrong with it...as long as we learn and do not keep doing the same mistake. I hope we (newbies) remember that 5, 10, 25, etc. years from now, when another batch of newbies ask same questions. ;)
 

drew33998

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I post lots of "garbage" stuff but learn from them and love them all the same. Come time to purge, admittedly, the less favored will go first. (Please note, that is not the case with the recent auction. The reason that had to go is my wintering situation.)

Buying the wrong stuff is part of the NORMAL learning curve and eagerness to get started. I see nothing wrong with it...as long as we learn and do not keep doing the same mistake. I hope we (newbies) remember that 5, 10, 25, etc. years from now, when another batch of newbies ask same questions. ;)

Well stated.
 

Lancaster

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Drew, I see you list "North Florida" as your location. North FL covers quite an area, so I'm not sure where you are in N. FL, but I am also from the area.

I have quite a few trees and have been practicing for a little while now. I am here just about every day tending to my amateur bonsai nursery. I would like to offer my help and advise to you.

You can take a stroll around and look at my trees. If you like the way they look and think I could be of some help, I would be more than happy to.

You could bring a few problem trees or some you may just want some advise on. If it isn't the correct time to work on them, we could definitely talk about future styling or ways to approach the development of them.

No charge, of course. My payment would be to help a newbie and point him and his trees in the right direction. And I would have some bonsai company for the day....

pm me if you are interested.

-Troy
 

carobone

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to me, when someone posts a query, one has three choices: positively reply with constructive comment/guidance; say nothing or in this case, posts something negatively and/or degrading. It's these kinds of reply-posts that discourage me from further posting on this site, and it's unfortunate.
 

drew33998

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Drew, I see you list "North Florida" as your location. North FL covers quite an area, so I'm not sure where you are in N. FL, but I am also from the area.

I have quite a few trees and have been practicing for a little while now. I am here just about every day tending to my amateur bonsai nursery. I would like to offer my help and advise to you.

You can take a stroll around and look at my trees. If you like the way they look and think I could be of some help, I would be more than happy to.

You could bring a few problem trees or some you may just want some advise on. If it isn't the correct time to work on them, we could definitely talk about future styling or ways to approach the development of them.

No charge, of course. My payment would be to help a newbie and point him and his trees in the right direction. And I would have some bonsai company for the day....

pm me if you are interested.

-Troy

Sounds great. Thanks for the offer. I will PM you
 

Adair M

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Troy,

That is very kind. I hope it works out. Drew sounds like he has a lot of enthusiasm, which is great. All of us needed a little help getting started. (Well, maybe not "all". I know I did.)

Drew,

I hope you don't think I was dumping on you. Truly, I was trying to help. If someone is going to spend significant money (and I think $100 IS significant money) and time on something, I would want them to be successful. It's just I think you can find something else for that money that would give you better results faster. (Especially since you can take that one back to Lowe's.)

Adair
 

drew33998

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Troy,

That is very kind. I hope it works out. Drew sounds like he has a lot of enthusiasm, which is great. All of us needed a little help getting started. (Well, maybe not "all". I know I did.)

Drew,

I hope you don't think I was dumping on you. Truly, I was trying to help. If someone is going to spend significant money (and I think $100 IS significant money) and time on something, I would want them to be successful. It's just I think you can find something else for that money that would give you better results faster. (Especially since you can take that one back to Lowe's.)

Adair

Sometimes you have to get some tough love to improve. Hey at least I can say that I learned something from this. I don't think the material is worthless though. I have brainstormed about rooting a ton of cuttings off of it( I have rooted hardwood cuttings off of crabapples before that took) . Then I could either grow them in the ground on a paver for several years or graft them to them at the base to add nebari. Or as you said I could always take it back to the store and get my money back. I have read that the species "Glowing Embers" grows well on its own roots.
 
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