Patina on American Pots

amkhalid

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I'm wondering if anyone has examples of American made pots that show some patina. I've seen some unglazed American pots that have been in constant use for 2-3 decades and show no apparent patina. Yet own some apparently 2-3 decade old Japanese pots with significant patina.

I wonder why this is... a few ideas...

-maybe the pots aren't as heavily used as I think
-maybe the texture of clays used in the west does not easily lend itself to patina buildup
-maybe fertilizer... cake style fertilizer seems to be more popular in Japan... I would imagine it leads to more patina. Maybe I'm wrong
-application of oil for display. Maybe this is something that helps patina buildup, and is done more frequently in Japan... or maybe not.

Thoughts?
 

Dan W.

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Good question. :)

Maybe most Americans scrub their pots too much...?...lol

When I was at Michael's in Feb., he made sure we only lightly wiped the pots clean with a soft towell so as not to rub away the patina. I never would have thought about it otherwise.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I suspect clay body has as much to do with it as time in use. Here for comparison is:

1. 40-50 year old Keizan, porous clay, obviously used, and patina everywhere.
2. 100-130 year old antique Chinese, dense clay, used, and patina just barely on the rim.
3. 15 year old Sara Rayner in constant use for a decade, also dense clay, and no patina to be found. Maybe in time it will creep up.
 

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Anthony

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Does it really matter?

An antique has to be over 100 years old, needs a certificate of authencity from a recognised authority and would be very rare.

Use as a container for a tree, would require, size matters not as the tree goes,xceptional quality. Many hands have to touch it.

At that level of quality, most would put the pot on display.

China has a law preventing the legal removal of anything over 100 years. I used to do business with antiques and Jade, eastern companies.
Good Day.
Anthony
 

amkhalid

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Does it really matter?

An antique has to be over 100 years old, needs a certificate of authencity from a recognised authority and would be very rare.

Use as a container for a tree, would require, size matters not as the tree goes,xceptional quality. Many hands have to touch it.

At that level of quality, most would put the pot on display.

China has a law preventing the legal removal of anything over 100 years. I used to do business with antiques and Jade, eastern companies.
Good Day.
Anthony

Sorry I don't think I understand this.

But yes, it does matter, because patina makes a pot look older which is important for elevating bonsai display.

Take care.
 

amkhalid

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I suspect clay body has as much to do with it as time in use. Here for comparison is:

1. 40-50 year old Keizan, porous clay, obviously used, and patina everywhere.
2. 100-130 year old antique Chinese, dense clay, used, and patina just barely on the rim.
3. 15 year old Sara Rayner in constant use for a decade, also dense clay, and no patina to be found. Maybe in time it will creep up.

I agree clay body must be important. Glazed takes especially long apparently.

I have what i think are some pretty new (20 years or so) Yamaaki pots with the silky purplish-brown clay that they use so often. Looks just like the clay on that antique you posted. Whatever it is about that clay, it seems to build patina very well.

BTW that antique chinese pots is freaking NICE man! Thanks for posting.
 
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nathanbs

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Does it really matter?

An antique has to be over 100 years old, needs a certificate of authencity from a recognised authority and would be very rare.

Use as a container for a tree, would require, size matters not as the tree goes,xceptional quality. Many hands have to touch it.

At that level of quality, most would put the pot on display.

China has a law preventing the legal removal of anything over 100 years. I used to do business with antiques and Jade, eastern companies.
Good Day.
Anthony

It does matter as an old rugged tree looks stupid in a bright shiny new pot. I dont think anybody said anything about needing to be an antique. The discussion is about patina/age on a pot. I think 2 likely culprits are pollution in japan definitely accelerates the rate of aging and as someone mentioned that we scrub the crap out of our pots removing any sign of age. Perhaps our water is harder so we get a lot of calcium build up that needs removing and as we remove that we also remove the patina. Its a catch 22 in that scenario.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Does it really matter?

An antique has to be over 100 years old, needs a certificate of authencity from a recognised authority and would be very rare.

Use as a container for a tree, would require, size matters not as the tree goes,xceptional quality. Many hands have to touch it.

At that level of quality, most would put the pot on display.

China has a law preventing the legal removal of anything over 100 years. I used to do business with antiques and Jade, eastern companies.
Good Day.
Anthony

Yes...at some point, it absolutely matters. Though to use or display it is at owner's discretion. Some may not want to put a tree in a 4-figure pot, to others it's no big deal (I'm not in this camp!), but I bought it to use for a special tree.

And if you're experienced with dealing with antiques, you must know it's possible to get Chinese products outside of China...this one is from the ShouYouKouSei kiln, which fired during the middle crossing period...1816-1911.
 

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Brian Underwood

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I have a few older american pots that have some great patina, such as this one; http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...p-quot-Shi-(Death)-quot&highlight=maple+death

I think it is about 30 years old from Jim Gremel and has spent the vast majority of its life outside in the elements. I have a couple more old Jim Barrett pots that show the start of some patina, and a couple unglazed Gremel and others that show the same. I'll try to take some pictures soon but the one in the link is the best example. I too think it has a lot to do with the clay used, and how much time it has spent in use.
 

amkhalid

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I have a few older american pots that have some great patina, such as this one; http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthr...p-quot-Shi-(Death)-quot&highlight=maple+death

I think it is about 30 years old from Jim Gremel and has spent the vast majority of its life outside in the elements. I have a couple more old Jim Barrett pots that show the start of some patina, and a couple unglazed Gremel and others that show the same. I'll try to take some pictures soon but the one in the link is the best example. I too think it has a lot to do with the clay used, and how much time it has spent in use.

Cool - I would love to have an older Gremel pot. Hold on to that one! I think I can see some patina on the lip. Sometimes patina can be hard to see unless you are holding the pot yourself.

This pot is less than 30 years old I was told by the nursery owner who sold it to me. Pretty impressive patina for a "young" glazed pot if you ask me. Don't know what the magic dust is...

ixmPqRI.jpg
 

Anthony

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Brian,

what I was trying to address is the many who claim they have 100 year old + pots and nothing to prove it. It is easy to reproduce pots and introduce artificial patinas on pots.

No point in spending money on something reproduced.

I have several Yi Xing pieces, pots, sculptures, teapots and vases. They are not shiny, as stoneware or sub-stoneware goes. I also have commerically made pots, of possible Yi-Xing clay, and they are not shiny. The finish on the Yi Xing is known as pear skin, it is gorgeous.

I do have earthenware pots from China that are glossy or decorated, but they are meant to be so.
I also have simple porcelain pots that are celadon,and carry a soft gloss.

However, I will be honest and say, that I don't want my celadon greens going the patina way, nor my decorated.
This is also why I take my time and select my Yi Xing stoneware. I like the stoneware look, it goes well with most trees.
Hope that explains.
Good Day.
Anthony

* I also like the finishes known as wax and butter, seen on Ju Yao wares.
 

pwk5017

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It does matter as an old rugged tree looks stupid in a bright shiny new pot. I dont think anybody said anything about needing to be an antique. The discussion is about patina/age on a pot. I think 2 likely culprits are pollution in japan definitely accelerates the rate of aging and as someone mentioned that we scrub the crap out of our pots removing any sign of age. Perhaps our water is harder so we get a lot of calcium build up that needs removing and as we remove that we also remove the patina. Its a catch 22 in that scenario.


I never factored in pollution when thinking about patina. Makes so much sense though. I agree, pots in Japan seem to acquire patina much faster than pots in america. Most pots I see from members of my club do not have patina. They are old pots too(30-50 years), so there should be something developing. Perhaps these members are washing their pots? I would be horrified, but not shocked. When I lived in Rome, if you opened the windows and left for the day, when you came back there would be a thin film of soot all over the apartment.

I make it a point to wipe down my pots with mineral oil every so often. I will let you know how it helps/does nothing to accelerate patina.
 

Smoke

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China has a law preventing the legal removal of anything over 100 years. I used to do business with antiques and Jade, eastern companies.
Good Day.
Anthony

Wow, someone should tell all the sellers on ebay, cause I regularly have bought scrolls over a hundred years old from China.

Last year I purchased some ancient bronze arrowheads from China possibly used by Zhou Tong (famous archer) from the years 1000 to 1125 CE. Absolutly older than 100 years.
 

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John Ruger

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Wow, someone should tell all the sellers on ebay, cause I regularly have bought scrolls over a hundred years old from China.

Last year I purchased some ancient bronze arrowheads from China possibly used by Zhou Tong (famous archer) from the years 1000 to 1125 CE. Absolutly older than 100 years.

Really nice score!
 
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The best way of establishing patina on items is for them to be buried in the ground
for a period of time...

People have been faking antiques by using this procedure for eternity.
Take a brand new pot bury it for a couple of yrs... presto, a hundred yr. old pot.
:cool:
 
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amkhalid

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The best way of establishing patina on items is for them to be buried in the ground
for a period of time...

People have been faking antiques by using this procedure for eternity.
Take a brand new pot bury it for a couple of yrs... presto, a hundred yr. old pot.
:cool:

Not sure im convinced by this. Do you have anything to support this claim?

Why is it that the inside of a pot never seema to develop much patina? Isnt it essentially "buried"?

I think oxidation is an important aspect in building patina, and there is less oxygen under soil
 
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Not sure im convinced by this. Do you have anything to support this claim?

Why is it that the inside of a pot never seema to develop much patina? Isnt it essentially "buried"?

I think oxidation is an important aspect in building patina, and there is less oxygen under soil

Try and see...
:)
 

amkhalid

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Try and see...
:)

Id like to see some of yours first. Presumably this would be easy to confirm because the pot would have uniform i.e. fake looking patina inside and out.

Again, I will ask can you explain why pots develop more patina on the outside than inside? According to your technique, the opposite should be true.
 
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Id like to see some of yours first. Presumably this would be easy to confirm because the pot would have uniform i.e. fake looking patina inside and out.

Again, I will ask can you explain why pots develop more patina on the outside than inside? According to your technique, the opposite should be true.

Pots that are "actually" old, are going to have a "natural" patina,
where the pot may or may not have less patina, on the inside...

But, This is not what I proposed, now did I ???
I simply stated if one wanted to age something try burying it...

Now... having said this... Every pot that I have ever had that is
unglazed, where the inside and outside are for the most part the
same... The inside where the dirt was, always had more patina.
 
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If you have lighter color pots... you might try soaking them in a
coffee or tea bath for a period of time...
:cool:
 
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