B&B Mugo development

In 2001 I obtained this rather large Mugo Pine as a B&B nursery tree. It spent five years in one of my large bonsai training planters. In 2006 I used it as a demo for our club show with the assistance of my good friend Nick from Windsor Ontario. We worked on this tree for about 3 hours doing the basic styling, pruning, wiring, and potting sequence June 18, 2006. The most asked question I got was; "Are you really going to do all of that and expect the tree to survive?" My answer was YES, I do this all the time to Mugo Pines during the summer and early fall.

Sorry if the sequence is backward but I may edit it to go the right way if anyone cares enough to be concerned.

by any crazy off chance a more recent pic of the tree?

nathanbs said:

by any crazy off chance a more recent pic of the tree?

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Soon to follow later this evening.

Subbed. Any chance of a pic from 2001?

DallasBonsai said:

Subbed. Any chance of a pic from 2001?

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Unfortunately I cannot locate one. A friend of mine and I purchased two of these on the same day. I now have the other as well but I do not remember taking a photo of either of them at the time, though I must have, that is unusual for me not to have done so.

I posted the trees as it looked earlier this summer as I was getting ready to work on it again.

Awesome trunk, wonderful transformation. Progression threads like this where one can see 10 years of work are what make this forum great. Thanks for sharing, always love seeing your trees Vance.

Nybonsai12 said:

Awesome trunk, wonderful transformation. Progression threads like this where one can see 10 years of work are what make this forum great. Thanks for sharing, always love seeing your trees Vance.

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That means a lot to me considering some of the things that have gone down over the last couple of months.

Outstanding development on this one, Vance. I love the pic of the grow box with screen sides. Awesome root growth there. I am looking forward to seeing it's future transformation. Thank you for sharing.

-Troy

Know nothing about Mugo's...

But thanks for the post.

There's something to be said about someone who devotes themselves to a species so completely and then shares their experience so freely.

Cheers.

Thanks for posting this progression Vance....and I agree, so many distractions here recently. Nice to have an informative and mature thread for once.

5 yrs from b&b to those roots. I now see what you mean about how slow it is to develop those roots outside of clay. Did you just cut the bottom and side fabric off to get it out of that pot?
What time of the yr. did you do the shari work? I like this one quite a bit Vance. Nicely done!

fore said:

Thanks for posting this progression Vance....and I agree, so many distractions here recently. Nice to have an informative and mature thread for once.

5 yrs from b&b to those roots. I now see what you mean about how slow it is to develop those roots outside of clay. Did you just cut the bottom and side fabric off to get it out of that pot?
What time of the yr. did you do the shari work? I like this one quite a bit Vance. Nicely done!

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I pushed the tree up from the bottom. However if they ever stick it is possible to unscrew the sides and remove the tree that way. I did every thing you see in the photos except the most current picture on the same day, June 17. This is what I have been saying about Mugos, they can be delt with, almost brutally, in the middle of the summer through late fall. It is the spring work that puts them into the compost pile.

This tree is far from done and needs a good deal of refinement work. As of now it just barely shows the promise I see in it.

Vance, awesome work. Love your progressions.

Also, to quote you from 2006 in an interview speaking about your work with Mugo's:

"When I first started doing bonsai, the few books on the subject that were available had two types of trees pictured in them. The first type was the masterpiece centurion trees in training for one hundred years, eighty years, two hundred years, or more and the second type were sticks in pots in training for twelve hours. The impression given was that the Masterpiece Bonsai was obtained from and by growing, for hundreds of years, the stick in a pot. We were left with the erroneous assumption that a tree had to have been in training for at least fifty years before it even began to look like a bonsai. You ask for the most significant change: communication between artists and the debunking of the great age myth of bonsai would be the greatest change I have seen.

These changes manifested in the publication of a couple of good books, and magazines, that have debunked the above concept. To some degree the rise of the Internet also helped. Because of this, more growers are beginning to understand that a good bonsai is not grown up into a bonsai but cut down into a bonsai..."

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Personally (Chris posting), that's one of the things that took me way too long to realize.

DallasBonsai said:

Vance, awesome work. Love your progressions.

Also, to quote you from 2006 in an interview speaking about your work with Mugo's:


Personally (Chris posting), that's one of the things that took me way too long to realize.

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It took too long to realize because it was a secret that the Japanese were at the time not willing to teach. It took a bunch of people to challenge the accredited rules and disprove the ir-refutability they occupied in the lexicon of American bonsai culture.

It took time to make people realize that the Mugo pine was a viable candidate for a masterpiece bonsai and it took going beyond convention to prove that the Mugo pine was easily worked on if done at all of the established wrong times for a Japanese Black Pine. Doing any major root work or design work should be done after the mid part of June and not before. The long time taught Japanese cultural modle has alway taught that a bonsai was grown up into a bonsai and avoided the fact, that most of the best bonsai are essentially cut down into bonsai from far larger material.

However; we are still to some degree having to deal with the concept that the growing methods for the JBP are still the model for all two-needle Pine culture, when in fact this set of "rules" are counter productive when used with some other two-needle Pines. It has been refreshing to hear some of the modern masters make mention of this. Ryan Neil is a good example when he makes a clear definition between two flush and single flush Pines and the differences between how they respond to bonsai culture. However I do not remember hearing him say anything about repotting and transplanting practices in the summer with single flush Pines.

Ryan helped me with a transformation of a mugo I have. I asked him about repotting after they hardened in June. He said, "Spring transplantation is always best". I mentioned others I know have had good luck with the post hardened transplant mode--he just repeated himself.

crust said:

Ryan helped me with a transformation of a mugo I have. I asked him about repotting after they hardened in June. He said, "Spring transplantation is always best". I mentioned others I know have had good luck with the post hardened transplant mode--he just repeated himself.

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That's pretty much the stock answer one would give if they weren't really familiar with a particular species. He probably hasn't worked on many mugos...would hope he would add that disclaimer. On the other hand, maybe he has worked with them and has had good results with spring transplanting? Still, the use of the word "always" bothers me...how many things in this world are "always" true?

Vance:
Once again, thank you for your post. I love to see the progression of your trees.

Question, when you create a jin of shari, do you heat the wood with a torch and then twist it?

I saw Colin Lewis do this and was wondering if this process would work with all pines.

Thanks

JoeDes

Just curious; when do you think this B&B was dug and why. There is a reason the industry does things and that comes from research from universities and R&D plus profit. There are times we can "DO" things but are they best time.

coh said:

That's pretty much the stock answer one would give if they weren't really familiar with a particular species. He probably hasn't worked on many mugos...would hope he would add that disclaimer. On the other hand, maybe he has worked with them and has had good results with spring transplanting? Still, the use of the word "always" bothers me...how many things in this world are "always" true?

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Mr. Neil was responding casually to my queries about post hackery transplanting of that specific tree in its situation. I suppose he did not work on mugos during his study time in Japan but no doubt has dealt with many in his travels overseas and in the US. I don't know what Vance thinks but it may be that the Mugos response to "our" climates springs that may be involved in here not just the species itself. Portland (or Japan) has much milder winters and milder springs. It seems as if mid-western springs have become more and more erratic and brutal the last 20 years. I plan to do a post-hardened transplant this coming year.

garywood said:

Just curious; when do you think this B&B was dug and why. There is a reason the industry does things and that comes from research from universities and R&D plus profit. There are times we can "DO" things but are they best time.

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I'm not sure if this post was in response to my comment, but if so...you missed the point. I would hope that someone like Ryan would respond with "really, tell me more about that" when that kind of information was brought to his attention...as opposed to the stock answer "spring transplanting is always best".

Especially since digging out a tree and wrapping the core of the root mass in burlap is not exactly the same as actually working on/reducing/trimming those core roots.

Chris

Edit to add - in response to Crust's post - sure, it could be that the particular climate plays a major role, not just the species. But someone should be willing to consider that instead of just dismissing it out of hand...don't you think?