Japanese White Pine

JudyB

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Adair,
Interestingly enough I've never seen this tree "candle" . I only have seen it grow individual needle clusters, that are all just the 5 needles. They don't extend from the branch, so I've never pinched the candles, as that would mean shortening the actual needles. If you look at the second pic in post one, maybe you can see what I mean. Each of the buds is just a 5 needle cluster. I'm not sure if this is a normal thing, but it's what I've seen for 3 years with this tree.
I've never decandled, but wonder if I should really retain that many needle clusters at each branch tip.
Thanks for your help.
 

Adair M

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Mine does the same thing.
 

JudyB

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Update on this little guy. When I do the winter work this year, I may do some repositioning of branching or some cutbacks of branching. While it's a pleasant enough tree to look at, it really seems a bit bland after seeing what Rob has done with some of his smaller ones. I think I'll wait till winter, when I can see the innards better.
 

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Adair M

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This is not the right time of year to do this, but this tree would benefit by refining it's branches with detail wiring. It has a "bush" look to it, rather than a "tree" look. Separating the branches, developing pads will help.

A minor thing you can do now is clean up the hanging needles. Needles that point down, or grow from the bottom of the branch can be cut off. Cut them off with sissors. Don't pluck them.
 

JudyB

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You are right Adair, and although it's wired pretty much all over the tree at this point, it was from the original shaping I did. I'll have to cut it all off, and start again now that I've got the branching at least pulled down. But I still think that even then, it might benefit from something more drastic than just wiring. We will see.
Thanks for the comments!
 

october

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Hi Judy..I think I have a definite solution to accomplish what you want with this tree. First, however, that large branch on the right needs to be removed. This is a beautiful tree. IMO, what this trees needs are the individual pads broken up into different planes. You do not need to move the branch, just parts of each branch. For example, instead of having 1 branch have 1 pad, you need to break it up into 2 pads that sit at different levels. For example, leave the first part of the branch closest to the trunk right where it is. Then designate where you can separate the foliage along the branch. Now wire that end half of the branch down. Now you have 2 pads coming off of one branch. You have not only created a new space, but a smaller pad that will make the trunk look larger. Also, in a season or 2 the small pads will fill in even more. If you go through the bottom half of the tree and do this, I believe you might have the image you are looking for. You might even have to remove some foliage that might be in the way.

Here is an example. This is my larger white pine. Notice the main branch on the left in the before pic. It is one pad. Now notice in the next pic, I dropped the second half of the branch down. It created an additional pad, an additional space and made the branch have more of a swoop down look. Well, this is also because of the new planting angle, but you get the idea.

Here are the virts. Also, the last pic is your tree with this technique applied.

Rob





Here is a virt of your tree with this technique applied to the bottom half and a slight reduction of the silhouette.

 
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JudyB

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EXCELLENT! Thanks Rob. I'll have a chance next week to really look at this, Wicked loads in for a month tomorrow morning, so no time this week...
 

JudyB

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I have been waiting for some time to get into this tree again, now I've taken some new photos, and have an idea for it, that I'd like to run by...
Instead of removing the right branch, I'm thinking that the left branch is the one that needs to go. It would open up to the trunk a bit (with the new planting angle) and get rid of the major flaw of that branch being too straight from the trunk. Take a look at my idiots virt, and see what you think.
I'll be thinning and wiring today and tomorrow so thoughts are very welcome right now...

First pic, as the tree sits now, without the left branch at current angle, last two are new angle with and without...
 

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Nybonsai12

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Just my .02. I see your throught process on removing it but I would leave it. I think I would prefer leaving that branch and growing it out even further from the tree and create a strong pad. I don't want to see it so symmetrical. Again, just my opinion and based on what is visually appealing to me, not any bonsai rules or anything.

Someone can correct me, but I believe a long lowest branch is a sign of welcome in Japan and I believe in their culture trees like that are placed at the entrance of their home.

Tree looks great and healthy Judy, always enjoy when you share.
 

JudyB

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Actually I'm trying to get away a bit from the current symmetrical proportions, taking that branch off actually makes it a bit less the same on the lower portions of the tree. I would also then lower the right branch significantly to make it even more pronounced. Taking the right branch would do somewhat the same thing, but would still leave me with that problematic portion of the left branch at the trunk. I could do some bending there, as I am more proficient in that now.... I also have always thought on this somewhat unorthodox side of the tree... Doesn't look as interesting in photos, as in person, but the large sweeping branch cascading down.... (this is the left branch) I like the image, but the trunk is pretty uninteresting from this angle. Just food for thought.
 

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Dav4

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Personally, I think removing the left branch and keeping the right sort of evens things out and makes the tree appear very stable...which, in my mind, isn't a good thing. I think you need to keep that left branch, and consider removing the lowest right branch. The trunk wants to move to the left, and having most of the foliage on the left, I think, would highlight the movement of the trunk and give the image a very dynamic, tension filled feeling.
 

johng

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Hey Judy...I am not sure I am following your logic in terms of the symmetry of the tree?? If this tree were mine, I think I would accentuate the left side and reduce the length of the branches on the right. I also think that tilting the tree to the right reduces the interest in the trunk.

Perhaps this will help...middle level right branch is not correct in the virtual but I think you can get the general idea
judywp.jpg
 

JudyB

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I guess my desire to rid myself of that branch is clouding my eye on this tree. It's just the big flaw I see when I look at it. But I do understand what you are saying about the movement being to the left, and it needs to be edited on the right.
I will continue and see where I get.
 

Lazylightningny

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Hey Judy...I am not sure I am following your logic in terms of the symmetry of the tree?? If this tree were mine, I think I would accentuate the left side and reduce the length of the branches on the right. I also think that tilting the tree to the right reduces the interest in the trunk.

Perhaps this will help...middle level right branch is not correct in the virtual but I think you can get the general idea
View attachment 45723

That looks good. I like the asymmetry projected here. Then repot the tree over more to the right. Nice tree, Judy.
 

Stan Kengai

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. . . It would open up to the trunk a bit (with the new planting angle) and get rid of the major flaw of that branch being too straight from the trunk. . .

What is it called when you accentuate a flaw? (Think Cindy Crawford's beauty mark) It's called character. I have to agree with Dave and John. When I look at your fourth pic above, the tree seems static and ordinary. I think that the lower left branch makes your tree, and to that end I would try to accentuate it further. John's virt is a very good place to start. Perhaps also consider turning the tree about 10-15 degrees clockwise so we can see where the branch comes off the trunk. Maybe even bring that branch down to where it almost parallels the lower trunk section, then flatten the end of the branch.
 

october

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I agree with Stan. Under normal circumstances, you would cut off the left branch and pull the right one down. However, I did a virt of it (I did not show it here) and the tree did not look balanced. it looked like the bottom was growing in one direct and the top in another. If it were my tree, come late winter, I would shorten most of the branches. I would create new ends of the branches to create a smaller, more compact silhouette. Basically, I would not remove any main branches, but I would shorten most of them. Personally, I like the way the tree looks like it is sitting with the low branch on the left. I think it suits the tree well.

Rob
 

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JudyB

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I agree with all of you, you've won me over. I wonder if with shorter branching I should go with a smaller pot, as it might seem too large at that point. Thanks for the virt Rob, I like it shorter on the right for sure. I appreciate your time and patience with my pine problems!
Also thanks john for your virt.

John, and Dave, and Stan thank you very much for your thoughts, it's helpful in the extreme to get opinions from others when unsure. Even if it only pushes you in the direction you were going.... In this case, it sent me back the other way.
 

Dan W.

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Great discussion everyone!

I think Rob's last virt speaks the most to me. But It's a beautiful tree no matter what you do with it Judy. keep us posted. :)
 

october

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With a reduced Silhouette, you will need a smaller pot. I feel that with this tree, the length of the pot is extemely important. If your pot is too long, the tree will lose some of it's appeal. It needs to be a pot that will accomodate only a slight planting to the right. However, both main branches go past the ends of the pot. Preferably the longest left branch will hang over just a tad bit more than the right.

Maybe something like this.

Rob
 

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Vance Wood

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With a reduced Silhouette, you will need a smaller pot. I feel that with this tree, the length of the pot is extemely important. If your pot is too long, the tree will lose some of it's appeal. It needs to be a pot that will accomodate only a slight planting to the right. However, both main branches go past the ends of the pot. Preferably the longest left branch will hang over just a tad bit more than the right.

Maybe something like this.

Rob

I hope that no one is going to hate me here but I have to speak my mind and see if anyone sees what I see. I love Pineius Parviflora, I think it is one of the most singularly beautiful trees in the world due to the color of the needles and the relation with he trunks. But therein is my problem. After seeing so many of them in a row and grouped together it is obvious to me that the majority of Japanese White Pine are not designed and styled here only purchased and kept healthy.

Granted; that is not an easy thing to do, but overall most of these trees I have seen here and in shows are basically the same tree. There is stylistically little difference between them. They are all grafted on JBP trunks that have a lot of bark and a bunch of White Pine branches growing out the top of the graft. The trunks are thick and S shaped with a good deal of fissured bark and a wide base, the most popular example of the cookie cutter tree out there.

I have a good deal of trouble growing them here because of the fungus issues that take constant attention to deal with. I don't mean to demean those trees or those who grow them but the truth is the truth and this post made me realize seeing all of these examples of this tree in the same place what we are accepting and state of the art.

Interesting or not the reason I got into the cultivation of the Mugo Pine is due to my love and desire for the White Pine which until recently what not available in my area. The Mugo Pine can be made to look like the White Pine in the way it grows. Now I am seeing White Pines that are not longer works of art but seem to be nothing more than commercial parody of the themselves. To those of you that grow this tree successfully I applaud you, it is not easy, ---------?????????
 
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