JBP where to next

Hi All,

i've recently acquired a jbp i've asked the question to a few people but haven't got a clear answer as to what my next step should be.

I've slowly been feeding it to bring it back to health and it has been responding well.

My question is what would everyone's opinion be on style direction? and what should be my next step ?
should i begin reducing branch length and try to increase ramification?
i'm also concerned about the whorl that currently has a number of branches coming from the same location?

Im undecided on the front one side has a better potential new leader the other has a better lower trunk line decisions decisions!

any opinions would be great!

potential front?

rear or potential front ?

side 1

side 2

previous chop point / whorl

Daniel

feed feed feed. then grow and cut candles late and try to spur some back budding down low.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yn1FiRw2JBo

In my opinion, you have a couple of steps prior to routine decandling and seasonal maintenance.

First, pick a trunk line and a final height to your tree. To me, it seems your final height should be somewhere around the whorl right now. Whatever you decide, remove the extraneous branching at the whorl. You should be left with one, or at most two branches at that junction. If you go with my suggested height, it means that you have a lot of reduction to go. You can adjust your selection of the front after step two.

Second, and this is important as you really only have one shot at this. Feed heavily in the early spring and monitor the extension of the spring candles. I imagine you'll get some good growth as your tree looks as though it has been growing strongly. Assuming all goes well, cut back. When you cut back, do it really really hard. Cut back all the way to the first clump of needles on the branch. You'll be removing 70-80% of the length on the existing branches. Do not remove any needles at this stage - let the tree bud back where it may. The objective here is to try and force some interior budding. While your at it, thin out the branches - you should only have 2 branches at each junction. Branches should look like a Y, not a trident or, worse yet, a whorl. That will cause problems down the line.

Feed heavily all summer. Next winter, repot.

Scott

Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for the reply's!

@Jason thanks for the link to the video i've watched ryan neill's video previously he know's his stuff!

@Scott excellent this is exactly what i was looking for more of a plan of action from here!
I'm in Perth, Australia so currently it's mid summer (its 30+ everyday and 40+ C some days) so i'll just need to adjust the timing to suit.

my plan was to use the following branch as the new trunk line.

It has some branching going up and is the thickest on that whorl so looks the most natural ?



I was planning on below as the 2nd branch to be kept and wire it to the side this would be the front as it appears to have a better lower trunk, i would then wire the above branch further towards the front to form the trunk line.



finally i'd remove all other branches coming from the whorl and cut back hard on the above two branches and any left to try induce back budding?



So account for my time of year

do i just continue to feed heavy now and let it grow until winter , then cut back hard come spring and remove the branches from the whorl at that time? or

cut back hard now (people usually decandle last week of jan/ first week of feb where i am) leaving the branches at the whorl and remove these next spring?

Any help would be fantastic!

Daniel

I agree with Scott. Don't decandle. Cut back hard. Don't pull any needles.

If you've been feeding it heavily, you could probably do the cut back now.

Adair M said:

I agree with Scott. Don't decandle. Cut back hard. Don't pull any needles.

If you've been feeding it heavily, you could probably do the cut back now.

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Yeah, if the tree is growing fine (which it appears to be, i assume those long branches are from current year's growth primarily?)I would agree with Adair and Scott- Both gave your god advice. Go ahead and cut it now. Mid summer is a good time in my area to cut these guys back and get some new growth before winter. I did it with two of my JBP (though not NEARLY as severe of a cut back) this year and probably got a dozen new buds or more on each tree in pretty much the exact spots I was looking for!

I think you have a solid plan of action and a decent layout for the future. Hard to tell how big the tree really is from your pics though, and the nebari is not really visible either... Do you have a decent root spread?

How cold are your winters?

When you cut the branches/ leader don't remove all foliage or it is likely to die (if the tree is real healthy and the branch is strong it mght still pop some new buds for you even if you remove all th needles, but why risk it?) Leave at least a few needles on each branch you want to keep below the cut and if the tree is healthy it ought to shoot out some buds for you on the old bark, usually where a needle is protruding, but sometimes they will just randomly break farther down the branch as well on the really old bark. Depends a lot I think on what type of Japanese Black pine it is and how vigorous it is.

Good luck! Post some pics after you start getting your back buds!

My suggestion was based on Ryans advice on feeding pines and allowing max growth then when they begin to set cutting. this has worked on my trees to produce back-budding and increased vigor. Feeding is key here whether you cut candles or branches.

Whorls are an ubiquitous problem with Pines. It is the curse of the way Pines grow, especially, if they are healthy and vigorous. In order for a Pine grown from nursery stock to be credible the whorls have to be eliminated from the design. You can not allow those branches that form from one spot to continue to develop, they will, in the end, form what we loving call a knuckle.

Once you get the tree under control you can avoid whorls by removing the multiple buds that cause them to form, but that does little to help you from where you are at currently. You need to remove all but one or two of the multiple branches in the whorl. This means choosing one of the remaining branches to remain as a replacement branch for the top of the tree.

The problem I have with doing this is that, the beginnings of a knuckle have already started and even with the branches removed as described there is likely to be a swelling at that point that will take years to grow out. What you need to do is make that cut back and hope for some back budding below the knuckle. If you get some bud break allow it to develop for a year or two and then remove the the growth, that now includes the knuckle, down to the new growth.

This will essentially start you down the trail of clip and grow. It takes some time but you will get a far better trunk line by doing this. I would also suggest that you place the tree in a pond basket or something with a screen sided container to promote fine roots.

badabing888 said:

I'm in Perth, Australia so currently it's mid summer (its 30+ everyday and 40+ C some days) so i'll just need to adjust the timing to suit.

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It should do well in Perth. You'll have to battle the downward pull of gravity as it will probably lead to unnaturally long candles.

badabing888 said:

my plan was to use the following branch as the new trunk line.

It has some branching going up and is the thickest on that whorl so looks the most natural?

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I like the selection. It adds some movement to the trunk, but the taper appears as though it may be more gradual than some of the other selections.

badabing888 said:

finally i'd remove all other branches coming from the whorl and cut back hard on the above two branches and any left to try induce back budding?

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Remove the branches - that will cause swelling and inverse taper. Encourage a single split at each node. Never more than 2 branches. It looks as though there are quite a few branches there - take care not to girdle the trunk when you remove them. Doing so will kill the leader.

badabing888 said:

do i just continue to feed heavy now and let it grow until winter , then cut back hard come spring and remove the branches from the whorl at that time? or

cut back hard now (people usually decandle last week of jan/ first week of feb where i am) leaving the branches at the whorl and remove these next spring?

Click to expand...

It really depends on how much of what we're looking at happened this year. If you had strong growth and good candle extension this year, then now is a good time to cut back. If not, get the tree healthy and then do it.

Scott

Thanks everyone for the wealth of information!

@ Jason thanks, i think at this stage to try minimize the whorl i'm getting rid of branches and cutting back remaining ones as you suggest

@ Eric , not all would be from this years growth it appears some would be from last years growth, i've only had it for about 4 weeks in this time i've only heavily fertalized and used seasol (liquid seaweed) to help quicken the process. When i got the pine it was obvious it hadn't been fertalized as there was many yellow needles and new growth was light green, since i begun fertalizing it has improved a lot. This is what is making me apprehensive in cutting back hard right now im thinking of giving it another month to see how it responds health wise?

Winters are mild and wet never below 0 c so frosts are almost non existent late june is really when "winter" comes around.

Currently it would be about 60cm tall base to tip, the nebari spread is not too bad but it will need a repot sometime soon as it is quite compacted in there

@ Vance

"If you get some bud break allow it to develop for a year or two and then remove the the growth, that now includes the knuckle, down to the new growth."

So long term i would be looking at potentially totally new growth and total removal of everything above the whorl if back budding give options below that point?

totally agree with the repot, but i'm trying to avoid cutting back off many branches while also cutting back the rest hard for fear of killing the tree, ive got a basket ready to go just trying to time it right

The issue i currently have with the whirl is that is the result of a previous cut back as in the photo below



1 negative of living in Western Australia = no import of JBP seeds or trees at all including from other states in australia so it leaves not a huge amount of options this one is just a headache but i liked the lower trunk so took the gamble!

Thanks again

Daniel

markyscott said:

You'll have to battle the downward pull of gravity as it will probably lead to unnaturally long candles.

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ROFLMAO. I hope you are not serious because the rest of the post seems you are.

Poink88 said:

ROFLMAO. I hope you are not serious because the rest of the post seems you are.

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I was totally serious. He'll probably also need bungy cords to hold it on the bench and some kind of screen to hold the dirt in the pot. There are all kinds of issues those down south have to deal with that those of us living on the right side of the world take for granted.

You need to be more sensitive Dario.

Scott

markyscott said:

I was totally serious. He'll probably also need bungy cords to hold it on the bench and some kind of screen to hold the dirt in the pot. There are all kinds of issues those down south have to deal with that those of us living on the right side of the world take for granted.

You need to be more sensitive Dario.

Scott

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Bright side is, your socks always stay up down under...

badabing888 said:

totally agree with the repot, but i'm trying to avoid cutting back off many branches while also cutting back the rest hard for fear of killing the tree, ive got a basket ready to go just trying to time it right

The issue i currently have with the whirl is that is the result of a previous cut back as in the photo below

View attachment 46334



Thanks again

Daniel

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The problem you have is that you did not work with the new growth that followed the cut back. This stuff does not develop itself you have to do something to control it and then style it. But!!! there are no whorls on it---yet. As to the dried out stub? That can be removed easily at any time. What seems to have happened is that a lot of new buds developed in a whorl at the base of the cut. Most of these should have been removed.

What you want to do is create a trunk line that has a more or less smooth taper bottom to top. The cut and grow method will give you that plus, a trunk that has movement as well. But you have to control everything. If you are not willing or able to do this for one reason or another, expecting the kind of bonsai, I think you have in your mind's eye, is beyond accomplishment.

It is because of this that many go out and purchase Pre-bonsai because this kind of laborious stuff is already accomplished. When you buy nursery stuff you are buying raw virgin material that needs to have everything done for it and to it for several years before it can be called acceptable bonsai material. But----in the end you will have a tree that is totally your own work and you will know more about it than anyone.

You will have accomplished more with this one tree than you could learn in a workshop you will have created a decent bonsai and acquired the knowledge and skill of how to get there. Purchasing a pre-bonsai, though not a bad idea, is nothing more than working on top of someone else's work. What do you do if pre-bonsai is not available or (God forbid) affordable?

@Markyscott forget the bungee cords i'm more worried about the kangaroo's and dingo's, that said i did have some nice prawns for lunch!

@ Vance totally agree that would be the ideal i got the tree already cut as is but i purchased it more to learn the various techniques and worse case i kill the tree but haven't invested a great deal into it. I've got a number of 3-4 year old pines growing that are longer term projects and a few pre bonsai as you describe but would prefer to butcher material such as this then something with more short term potential not to mention the fun of learning everything from scratch. The advice yourself and the others have given me a starting point on the way forward especially when doing dramatic reduction of branches and timing of what should be done first before the current issues get any worse.

It looks like you received a fair amount of advice on technique for this tree from experienced folk, but I want to chime in on the design of this tree. I dont have photoshop on my ipad, or I would have done a more detailed virtual for this tree, but these rough diagrams will have to suffice. Ok, first one is what I like, and dont like about this tree. I like to perform this super basic analysis on every tree that i consider purchasing, or that finds its way onto my bench. Either the problem areas can be remedied in some way via grafting, carving, bending, whatever, or they cant and they need to go. First up, I really like this base. You have some great taper, and its powerful. Pretty nice bark developing too. You also have a logical first branch in place, and some other buds. this is circled in green. the red area is what I would consider a major flaw in this tree. You go from having stellar base, taper, subtle movement, to a straight, budless, taperless trunk section that culminates in a terrible ball of reverse taper and 30 branches. In my opinion, this cannot be remedied. You could do as you are suggesting and cut back to the dominant branch in that whirl, but it doesnt solve the issue of that stove pipe section of the trunk, lack of buds, and the large wound that would be left behind from having to cut a severe diagonal through that reverse taper whorl. All of this can be done , and with some luck (or grafting) you can create a fairly decent JBP bonsai. However, an alternative to that route would be my second picture. It would involve getting rid of everything in red rectangle and growing out a new trunk leader. It wouldnt be a reduction i would do in one year. On rough stock like this, why suffer flaws at all? You have the ability to continue to develop your awesome trunk with more taper and movement. In addition, you wont have to suffer from looking at the reverse taper the rest of your life. It would also give you a much better chance of having better branch placement. You are much more likely to get backbudding on the younger branches that are grey and barkless, than you are to see backbudding on the more mature trunk sections. Finally, I think if you go this route you would want to adjust the planting angle a bit. It will help to get your first branch to move parallel to the ground instead of up(remember, mature pine branches typically have lateral or downward movement, they dont grow up), and it will make the movement in that next trunk section a bit more coherent with the design.

Whatever you choose to do, I would encourage you to highlight the best features, and not to settle on the fastest/easiest design possible. Also, i would strongly consider repotting this pine. Mucky soil and pines always makes me nervous. Everything begins and ends with healthy trees. Healthy trees begin with good soil, and more times than not, end with poor soil.

Patrick

Agree with pwk

Brian Van Fleet said:

Bright side is, your socks always stay up down under...

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You have to be careful not to pee in your own face.

Hi Guys,

@ patrick wow mumma! nice going , interesting idea that could work and would also avoid the whorl all together, but i would imagine this would need to be done slowly i.e cut back the branches and remove them 1 by 1 over time before removing the whorl. I guess i could cut back to the previous two selected branches while also sorting out the lower branches and new trunk line. If i don't get any nice budding or branching lower down i could go to plan B which would be the less desirable course of action which would be to cut and include the whorl. I guess i'm still apprehensive to just cut everything off! lol

how far would the rotation need to happen? , i would have thought this would have bought the first branch too low, i'm assuming the thickest branch being on the lowest branch is being cut off to encourage fresh shoots on the remaining branches so there is more to work with and to also better balance the shape of that branch. I see where you are heading

Agree with the repotting , its a bit out of our repotting time here, i could slip pot it i.e. remove it from the current pot tease out as much soil as i can and repot into a large tub with akadama etc to minimize disturbance to the roots so i can still cut it back to two branches in time for winter, before potentially going the whole way and severing the trunk all the way back

@ vance #'s1 is easy , #2's pose a serious issues.

badabing888 said:

Hi Guys,

@ patrick wow mumma! nice going , interesting idea that could work and would also avoid the whorl all together, but i would imagine this would need to be done slowly i.e cut back the branches and remove them 1 by 1 over time before removing the whorl. I guess i could cut back to the previous two selected branches while also sorting out the lower branches and new trunk line. If i don't get any nice budding or branching lower down i could go to plan B which would be the less desirable course of action which would be to cut and include the whorl. I guess i'm still apprehensive to just cut everything off! lol

how far would the rotation need to happen? , i would have thought this would have bought the first branch too low, i'm assuming the thickest branch being on the lowest branch is being cut off to encourage fresh shoots on the remaining branches so there is more to work with and to also better balance the shape of that branch. I see where you are heading

Agree with the repotting , its a bit out of our repotting time here, i could slip pot it i.e. remove it from the current pot tease out as much soil as i can and repot into a large tub with akadama etc to minimize disturbance to the roots so i can still cut it back to two branches in time for winter, before potentially going the whole way and severing the trunk all the way back

@ vance #'s1 is easy , #2's pose a serious issues.

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If the tree is healthy, I dont think taking off all of the whorl growth would be detrimental. However, if this were mine, I would take half the branches off now. Half next year. Sort of unneccessary to shock the tree that much at this stage in the game.

I would repot whenever its safe. I wasnt saying its dying and it needs an emergency repot, but I think you would find the tree will produce better results(backbudding, tighter growth, more disease prone) if it was in a healthier medium.