Nursery bought Austrian Pine

I have been eying this one for months at a local nursery.. Was listed at like $48 and they cut the price by 50%, had some extra money so it seemed time to go ahead and get it! I have never owned an Austrian Black Pine before, but seen some nice Bonsai made from them (thank you Walter Pall for posting so many great pics online!). This one has a trunk that is thick enough to make a bonsai of just about any size (I didn't measure it but it is around three inches thick even well above the root base...) but hasn't developed any real mature, flaky looking bark yet. It seems obvious that it is a relatively young tree developed in a nursery can and has always just shot out profuse growth every season...the lower trunk is pretty much straight, but has a barely noticeable mild curve between the ground and that first whorl of branches... I plan on chopping at that first whorl, removing most the branches and keeping one branch and the new leader- you can see it at the top of the close up pic. This is not stellar, Yamadori material with decades/ century of age... But for $26.50 after taxes, it is the best pre bonsai material I could find without spending enough money to get myself in trouble!

Any insights into Austrian Pine care? I know (well, i have READ) that they only usually produce one flush of growth vs JBP that will produce two in a growing season. This one has decently short needles already and I am sure you can tell from the massive candles that are all ready to bust that it is pretty healthy! I feel god about the tree's ability to grow well in my area because it has been at the nursery where I bought it from- less than a mile from my home- for a year or more and doesn't seem to be struggling in any way!

I guess most of all I am wondering when is the best time to start working on this guy? As In when should I do this big chop? Is it bad idea to cut it back and do a little work on the roots around the same time? I know many trees are Ok wi doing both- reduce the top and you can reduce the bottom- but some people seem to live by the "one insult per season" rule... More than anything, with the roots I just want to get it out of this post, see if it is severely root bound ( it still drained well) and take off some of the dirt from the top to see if I can find the nebari...

Any advice is welcome! I own a couple pines, Some JBP for YEARS now... A dwarf Scots Pine and one tree I collected from my brother's house in the mountains in Va last year that is probably a Virginia Pine... So I have a good bit of experience with a couple different varieties... Just wondering if there are any particular dangers to be aware of with this species, wondering how people train them to get increased ramification... That kind of stuff. I have seen Ryan Neal's Videos on pines, and read a little but most my experience pruning for refinement is on JBP.

Here are da pics:

I was searching these the other day and came across this website linked on the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society's page. I bought a small one at Lowes last summer for like $5. I didnt do much with it last year, but Ive been on baby leave for a while now and bordem got me so I styled it. I didnt find this website until after the fact though.

http://bonsai-tree-care.com/types-of-trees/black-pine-pinus-nigra/

dkraft81 said:

I was searching these the other day and came across this website linked on the Rocky Mountain Bonsai Society's page. I bought a small one at Lowes last summer for like $5. I didnt do much with it last year, but Ive been on baby leave for a while now and bordem got me so I styled it. I didnt find this website until after the fact though.

http://bonsai-tree-care.com/types-of-trees/black-pine-pinus-nigra/

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I'd love to see yours if you care to share!

The problem with this landscape grown material is it is left to just grow. Everywhere you have branches coming out started as a swirl of growth. If it was grown for bonsai the number of buds would have been reduced before they turned into branches. This tree again has been left to grow how ever it wants to. Where you don't have bulges you have a stove pipe trunk with no taper. So every where you see growth the trunk has huge bulges that can never be corrected. If this was my first pine I would do as follows.
1. Know this would never be good bonsai. Please I'm not trying to offend.
2.take this tree and learn to do the different techniques for black pine.
3. This will prepare you for being able to train trees grown to be bonsai.
4. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer. Just trying to give you accurate advice.
5. And I have bought this tree before when I started out and it was an inexpensive way to learn.

My tree is nothing really special, but it is something to play with and see how it reacts to things, (like I said a lowes $5 tree). If I remember right it was in a 1 gallon nursery pot with very long buds at the appex. I unfortunately did not take any pictures when I first bought the tree. It was really rot bound so i slip potted it into a terracotta pot. Without knowing any better I trimmed the buds treating it like a Japanese black pine, which I later found out that it is considered a single flush pine. Despite my best efforts it was strong and pushed a second flush of buds. There was an unintentional repot because I didnt tie it down when I slip potted it last summer. Here are the before and after pics. Sorry about the side ways pics not sure why my phone does that now.

jkd2572 said:

The problem with this landscape grown material is it is left to just grow. Everywhere you have branches coming out started as a swirl of growth. If it was grown for bonsai the number of buds would have been reduced before they turned into branches. This tree again has been left to grow how ever it wants to. Where you don't have bulges you have a stove pipe trunk with no taper. So every where you see growth the trunk has huge bulges that can never be corrected. If this was my first pine I would do as follows.
1. Know this would never be good bonsai. Please I'm not trying to offend.
2.take this tree and learn to do the different techniques for black pine.
3. This will prepare you for being able to train trees grown to be bonsai.
4. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer. Just trying to give you accurate advice.
5. And I have bought this tree before when I started out and it was an inexpensive way to learn.

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Thanks! I appreciate your frankness and I know the issues I am dealing with in regards to this tree. I do not expect a masterpiece to emerge from a $26 tree and there is not much taper in the lower part of the trunk... There has been very little pruning done (but they have cut some of the lower branches in the past, i see the cuts).

However, there were a few reasons I picked this tree.

The whorls of branches that produce the bulges of growth, reverse taper, ugly bumps... Are pretty much ALL going to be removed, leaving a clean trunk line with some gentle movement that will have a sharper turn where I cut it.
There are a few interesting low branches and buds breaking on old wood very low on the trunk that will give me some choices to work with.
There is a thick branch emanating from the trunk at an angle that should make a pretty smooth transition to a new leader, and once I uncover the roots I will decide what angle I will plant it at in the future. I am still trying to decide if I am going to attempt to make a diagonal cut from that branch to one lower on the opposite side, or if I am going to create a Jin at the place where I chop it...

I am not really disagreeing with you, just saying I think there is more potential here than with many of the large nursery pine trees I have seen. Just bought it today, haven't really poked around below the soil line, but the roots HAVE to be pretty compact- there are at least a few inches of trunk buried, the pot is small in relation to the size of the tree and I HOPE there is a nice little root spread down below the surface... If I uncover a big Nasty bulge with roots far below it making a terrible reverse taper, the tree will be pretty much done for anything but a scrubby looking landscape tree... But, hey at least I am only out $26.50! LOL

Thanks for the advice, and my real goal here is just to get so e experience working not here as I see them pop up in nurseries more often than I see JBP or some of the most commonly used species, so I might wind up with more in the future... Have you owned any JKD?

I own about 12 JPB in deferent stages. 4 red pines. One white pine. And a Scott's pine. Once again I did not mean to insult only giving the truth as I have seen it. The other poster in my opinion has found a better tree for future developement. I just can't see how you can make progress with the bulges the worles have created unless the nebary is awesome and you graft a new leader under everything that has already grown. Again this is a great tree to learn on as pines are their own animal as far as technique goes. Please update on the progress as we are all learning here.

dkraft81 said:

My tree is nothing really special, but it is something to play with and see how it reacts to things, (like I said a lowes $5 tree). If I remember right it was in a 1 gallon nursery pot with very long buds at the appex. I unfortunately did not take any pictures when I first bought the tree. It was really rot bound so i slip potted it into a terracotta pot. Without knowing any better I trimmed the buds treating it like a Japanese black pine, which I later found out that it is considered a single flush pine. Despite my best efforts it was strong and pushed a second flush of buds. There was an unintentional repot because I didnt tie it down when I slip potted it last summer. Here are the before and after pics. Sorry about the side ways pics not sure why my phone does that now.

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I think you did a great job with branch selection and adding some movement to the trunk! That was a wonderful job for a first style on this little tree!

I haven't worked with the Austrian Pines myself, but have owned enough pines to know this- if you leave it in that pot, and "work" the branches every year going forward... it won't get a lot bigger in diameter, EVER. I bought a JBP from a Bonsai nursery about... Probably 6-7 years ago. It was in a Bonsai pot already even though it was pretty small. Damn thing probably isn't one millimeter thicker today than it was 6 years ago! It was one of the first ones I ever bought, didn't want to "mess up" what the curator of that bonsai establishment had begun with it or something- I don't know why it took me so long to change things up a little, but I put it in the ground middle of last growing season, the roots should be set to produce some big time growth this season (buds are already swelling bigger than they EVER did in the past) and I plan to let it go for a while to get thicker for me... I am working on adding some movement low in the trunk ( it is still thin enough to get a decent bend with a clamp). I am going to try to get it to swell up a bit for me over the next few years and see if I can't turn it into a decent bonsai one day!

I think you have a great shape for this tree started, and if you slip pot it up to a larger pot, or put a board/ tile under it and drop it in the ground for a couple years, you will have a really nice tree pretty soon! Not bad at all for $5!!

jkd2572 said:

I own about 12 JPB in deferent stages. 4 red pines. One white pine. And a Scott's pine. Once again I did not mean to insult only giving the truth as I have seen it. The other poster in my opinion has found a better tree for future developement. I just can't see how you can make progress with the bulges the worles have created unless the nebary is awesome and you graft a new leader under everything that has already grown. Again this is a great tree to learn on as pines are their own animal as far as technique goes. Please update on the progress as we are all learning here.

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Oh no, I don't take it as an insult at all! Like I said.. It's a $26 tree! I was just saying that pretty much all that nasty stuff on the second and third whorls of growth is just going to be chopped off, and I will be removing most the branches and wood around the second whorl as well, only keeping one branch... Maybe two if there is enough vertical space between them. I THINK I can get something decent out of it if I do that... Wish it had more movement down low though.

Regardless, I won't even know what I have until I get down to the roots!

I am also thinking of trying an air layer on one of those candles up top- it would put any major work on this guy back at least a year, but I have been dying to try a layer on a Pine tree since reading about it being done on JBP at Murinaka Bonsai... I am seriously addicted to propagation. I don't even know why I am buying any more trees, except to get species I don't already own! I can't count the number of Japanese Maple cuttings and air layers I have made over the years! At one point I had to start giving them away as gifts. I have probably a dozen or so that I made just this last year. Just got my first cutting from JBP to root this year ( first time I ever tried it..) got a handful of Trident whips in some dirt now that I plan to root, a couple satsuki cuttings, a few Fire Thorn clippings and too damn many Junipers to count- mostly Shimpaku, a couple Nana and even a couple off a regular old Sargent's Juniper. I know most people don't like this for Bonsai because they make such have mature foliage, but I like the immature growth on them... It is bright Green, soft to the touch for "needle" growth and easy to train- they grow fast, take a licking and keep on ticking.. Great species to learn on and relatively easy to find and cheap too! I don't see a lot is gorgeous specimen Sargent Juniper Bonsai around- everybody loves their cousin the Shimpaku so much more- but I like the big one I have and I might just try to stake a couple of these cuttings, ground grow them and see if I can't make something decent...

Anyway, sorry to get side tracked! I take no offense to anything people want to tell me about this tree. Bought it because it was cheap, it was big and has a hefty trunk and for years, too many of my trees were just flat out too small to be ready to work on! I cannot spend thousands of dollars on specimen material now, so I have to mind diamonds from regular nursery material, collect stuff from the wild or grow my own trees from tiny seedlings and cuttings. At least, by doing it this way, I should be able to get enough practice so that I will be able to care for the nice trees I hope to wind up with one day! Maybe after the kids are grown and gone off to school... Right? Oh wait, then I will be REALLY poor.. Maybe after they are graduated and have their own jobs? Thirty years from now? LOL

Everything I've read indicates that austrian black pine (pinus nigra) cannot be treated the same was as the standard japanese black pine (p. thunbergii) because it won't reliably produce a second growth the same season. However, there really isn't a lot of good information out there about this species...or if there is, I haven't found it.

I picked up 2 to experiment with a few years ago. Both are in the ground and doing well. One has the standard "whorl" problem and I've been gradually reducing the number of branches at each whorl. I haven't been working with with them long enough to really know how they respond to pruning at various times, whether candles should be cut (and when) or removed, etc. If anyone here at Bnut has actually worked with the species, I'd love to hear more about it.

Chris

Me too Chris! As I mentioned briefly in the first post I know Walter Pall has had some great success with this species! Some insanely beautiful trees are posted on his website made from collected Austrian Black Pines... Perhaps he could shed some light on how to care for them and train them. I think we could pretty much treat the branches/ candling like you would a White pine, but I have almost no experience with them to reference and have only learned what I know from videos and books.

Hey Eric.. I bought an almost identical tree about 10 years ago...75% off nursery stock. I chose to make it a garden tree. It has developed well using modified JBP techniques. I prune in June/July. I don't cut all the new growth but instead just take off the most vigorous and what doesn't fit the design. It buds back profusely. It grows in about the hottest, most sunny, spot in my garden. The only issues I have had with it is that it is perhaps even more prone to needle cast than JBP. I also have 2 smaller ones that I bought at the same time...never done any "work" on them...just minimal pruning...if you ever get out to the garden, you would be welcome to take them home with you...

John

johng said:

Hey Eric.. I bought an almost identical tree about 10 years ago...75% off nursery stock. I chose to make it a garden tree. It has developed well using modified JBP techniques. I prune in June/July. I don't cut all the new growth but instead just take off the most vigorous and what doesn't fit the design. It buds back profusely. It grows in about the hottest, most sunny, spot in my garden. The only issues I have had with it is that it is perhaps even more prone to needle cast than JBP. I also have 2 smaller ones that I bought at the same time...never done any "work" on them...just minimal pruning...if you ever get out to the garden, you would be welcome to take them home with you...

John

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Wow, thanks John, even more incentive to come visit! I really need to come see your place this Spring! I got to hang out with Ken this past Weekend for a little while and we talked about going to see you one day. I should actually have some weekends off soon, and I will make sure to try to schedule something with you then!

That damn needle cast is a pain! I think the two JBP I have planted in my Garden are showing some signs of it. The only fungicides I have are copper, Lime sulfer and some cheap "3 in 1" cure all stuff I bought at Lowes.. Oh and some Neem Oil. You think Copper or the Lime sulfer would work on it? I was at Woodley's yesterday, and their "chemical people"- the wholesalers from where they get the fungicide, insecticide and some fertilizers- were there. I asked around but none of the ladies working at Woodley's nor the "chemical guys" knew anything about needle cast. He recommended a systemic to me that I might try, but the main ingredient's name is forgotten now. Something with a P... He also told me that Lime Sulfer is basically banned from distribution going forward! It is some nasty stuff I know, but they cannot even sell it any longer! I don't know how that will affect the Jin treatments we use in Bonsai, but I Thoth that was interesting info. The bottle I have is big and will last me a while, so I am not super concerned..

I tried to air layer one like this to see if I could do it. It died..... I do want to get another one just to try it again. Let us know if you are successful as I would like to know how you did it. Muranaka seems to do it with much success. So it can be done

jkd2572 said:

I tried to air layer one like this to see if I could do it. It died..... I do want to get another one just to try it again. Let us know if you are successful as I would like to know how you did it. Muranaka seems to do it with much success. So it can be done

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I have read his posts about it a few times, he takes large candles from previous year's growth- like the ones I have at the top of this tree... He removes a bunch of needles, leaves some at the top, cuts the ring of bark and makes a layer like you would with any other tree... I'd have to go back and read it again, but I think he removes the developing buds/ candles from the top of the branch he is layering... Now, that is on JBP which is obviously a different tree entirely, but similar enough that I assume it would work on the Austrian Black Pine as well. I am interested in layers and cuttings from JBP because I have started to like smaller bonsai lately. Large and medium sized trees with big ole trunks, masculine looks and all have been my favorites for years, but recently I have developed more of an affinity for the smaller trees and realized that all the ones I have been working on are pretty much geared towards larger trees... So now I am trying to get some stock I can turn into Mame and Shohin sized trees... Is sing really a good option for that kind of tree, but perhaps it will give me some practice on making air layers and I hope to turn the lower portion into a decent large tree one day...

I am making s many new trees again all of a sudden I will probably have to start getting rid of some Maples and Junipers win the next year or two! Pines are a little harder but not impossible..

Timberrrrrrrrrrr!

I got a new saw a couple weeks ago- ordered of Stone Lantern at a STEAL- specifically for this task and decided today was the day to cut the sucker! I knew all along where AJ wanted to cut it. If it hadn't had what I felt was a clear spot that would make a nice new leader, Iprobably wouldn't have bought it even at 50% off!

Here are the results... I did lop a few of last years vigorous candles off the top branches to try some Curtis, but decided against an air layer... Doubt any will take, but I have decided I probably have enough Pies. They aren't my favorite, just something more of a personal challenge for myself... Deciduous is what I am used to. Pines are still a new tree in my collection. I only have a couple and I think I am sticking with what I have for right now, unless an amazing deal pops up!

Pic1 is the top and remaining bottom sitting next to each other.
Pic2 is the cut
Pic3 and 4 shows the new leader branch from different angles

Left a little chunk of wood above the cut in case I want to carve a Jin up there, and to leave a little room for die back, but I will probably just angle cut from the new leader to a branch on the back next year, after I decide the tree is healthy enough to take another round of training and a repot. For now I just did the chop, A little bit of pruning and will leave it for most of the growing season to get happy with the remaining growth...

Have you been able to see the base on this guy yet? Looks like you have some nice low branches down at the bottom that you could let grow freely to fatten the base. When I say low I mean at the soil level. I might not be seeing the right thing though.

jkd2572 said:

Have you been able to see the base on this guy yet? Looks like you have some nice low branches down at the bottom that you could let grow freely to fatten the base. When I say low I mean at the soil level. I might not be seeing the right thing though.

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Yeah, there is a whorl of branches just around and below soil level which gives me the impression the Roots are buried pretty deep! I was poking around the soil's surface today, but no sign of the nebari... I was actually planing to do exactly what you suggest- let one or two of the low branches grow freely for a couple growing seasons to fatten the trunk and create a little more taper. I will be interested to see if any f the branches down there have roots growing off of them when I do get around to repotting it. There are some that seem to be buried deep enough to ground layer themselves- who knows, I might wind up with an extra tree or two!

I think there is a decent tree in there- it will take some years to pull it out, but working on the trees is the fun part! This thing isn't going to go win a Bonsai competition in Japan any time soon or anything like that; The trunk is a telephone pole for the most part, with just a very subtle almost imperceptible curve in it... But if I get the base to fatten up some it will have a little taper, and that new leader will give it some movement up top... Could turn out alright.

I was pretty excited by how easy it was to saw this guy down today. The folding saw I bought was a cheap one, and when I first tried it out I found it to be kind of flimsy- it was flexing and blowing whenever I got into thick wood, but it is SHARP, and did a good job overall! Not bad for $7.95!! I will DEFFINITELY be buying more tools from Stone Lantern! The root hook I got is perfect, and I used to be a subscriber to their magazine back in the day, so this wasn't the first time I ordered stuff from them... Color me satisfied overall!

I love stone lantern and the customer service is top notch as well as the easy payment methods. Their blog bonsai bark is also a good read. I have it loaded in my blog reader so all of the new posts automatically go into it. My blog reader is called feedly. It's an app on my iPad highly recommend. Every time you open the app it pulls all of the new posts from blogs that you have subscribed to. I usually get over 20 new articles a day on bonsai. I know a little off topic I just wanted anybody who currently does not do this to know about it. It's basically my best education on bonsai at the moment. It will be interesting to see what the base looked like when you finally uncover it. I have done the same thing you have done a few times. Sometimes you get a flared base and sometimes you get an inverse taper right at the bottom. I have never tried it, but you could try to air layer at the bottom of the inverse taper if it has it. Just something else you could try as a learning experience on this tree.

jkd2572 said:

I love stone lantern and the customer service is top notch as well as the easy payment methods. Their blog bonsai bark is also a good read. I have it loaded in my blog reader so all of the new posts automatically go into it. My blog reader is called feedly. It's an app on my iPad highly recommend. Every time you open the app it pulls all of the new posts from blogs that you have subscribed to. I usually get over 20 new articles a day on bonsai. I know a little off topic I just wanted anybody who currently does not do this to know about it. It's basically my best education on bonsai at the moment. It will be interesting to see what the base looked like when you finally uncover it. I have done the same thing you have done a few times. Sometimes you get a flared base and sometimes you get an inverse taper right at the bottom. I have never tried it, but you could try to air layer at the bottom of the inverse taper if it has it. Just something else you could try as a learning experience on this tree.

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I am going to go get that app! Sounds great...

I have a few I read on Bonsai- Walter Pall, Bonsai Bark, Bonsai Tonight and Peter Tea's- but he seems to have quit posting since he got back from Japan... What others should I be following?