To Seal or Not to Seal

As I stated earlier, the use of sealants is a personal choice and that there is evidents to support both sides of this particular issue.

I for one believe they provide a benificial service and have seen what can happen when they are not used.

In my opinion, Kong has presented some very convincing, first hand, photographic evidence to support the use of these products.

I stand in Kongs corner on this one, below is my evidence supporting the use of sealants.

The first photo is a current shot of the trunk chop of a wisteria vine collected in 1988. It was sealed immediately after collection. The wound is inspected, cleaned, and resealed on a yearly basis. The underlaying pith is as solid as the day it was collected.

The second photo shows the results of not sealing a wound on a wisteria. This vine was dug in 2004, along with several other wisteria vines. The trunk chop was treated and sealed and is still intact. Unfortunately, there was a quarter size vine removed from the trunk that did not get sealed. You can see the hole where the vine was cut about three-forths of the way up the trunk. This untreated wound allowed the agents of decay to infiltrate the trunk and the resulting damage happened very quickly.

For those that perfer more clinical types of research to prove a point, I would like to refer you to the following article: Wound Healing, Part 1 by Bill Cody MD. The article appeared in Bonsai: Journal of the American Bonsai Society, Summer 1993, Volume 27, Number 2, pages 48-54.

In his conclusion, Dr. Cody states, "In contrast to several studies of wound dressings referenced in this paper, our results would indicate that immediate protection of wound edges by any of the three dressings studied, improves the rate of closure in field grown cedar elms to a significant degree over wounds left unprotected."

Believe what you want, the only thing that really matters is what works for you.

Regards,
Paul

pjkatich said:

As I stated earlier, the use of sealants is a personal choice and that there is evidents to support both sides of this particular issue.

I for one believe they provide a benificial service and have seen what can happen when they are not used.

In my opinion, Kong has presented some very convincing, first hand, photographic evidence to support the use of these products.

I stand in Kongs corner on this one, below is my evidence supporting the use of sealants.

The first photo is a current shot of the trunk chop of a wisteria vine collected in 1988. It was sealed immediately after collection. The wound is inspected, cleaned, and resealed on a yearly basis. The underlaying pith is as solid as the day it was collected.

The second photo shows the results of not sealing a wound on a wisteria. This vine was dug in 2004, along with several other wisteria vines. The trunk chop was treated and sealed and is still intact. Unfortunately, there was a quarter size vine removed from the trunk that did not get sealed. You can see the hole where the vine was cut about three-forths of the way up the trunk. This untreated wound allowed the agents of decay to infiltrate the trunk and the resulting damage happened very quickly.

For those that perfer more clinical types of research to prove a point, I would like to refer you to the following article: Wound Healing, Part 1 by Bill Cody MD. The article appeared in Bonsai: Journal of the American Bonsai Society, Summer 1993, Volume 27, Number 2, pages 48-54.

In his conclusion, Dr. Cody states, "In contrast to several studies of wound dressings referenced in this paper, our results would indicate that immediate protection of wound edges by any of the three dressings studied, improves the rate of closure in field grown cedar elms to a significant degree over wounds left unprotected."

Believe what you want, the only thing that really matters is what works for you.

Regards,
Paul

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To be honest with ya Paul, the trunk that has rotted is much more attractive then the other trunk with a a big ugly circle that will never heal or go away....

What is interesting is how long ago all these articles for and against sealant were written. Lots has changed, I wonder if the research would as well????



Jason

When I get an a BooBoo, I like to put a band on it because it heals a lot faster and keeps away infection. Nothing to do with bonsai, just makes me feel better. Ever use a piece of kleenex to stop a ravor cut from bleeding faster. Nothing to do with bonsai, right, or..................

Harry

JasonG said:

To be honest with ya Paul, the trunk that has rotted is much more attractive then the other trunk with a a big ugly circle that will never heal or go away....

What is interesting is how long ago all these articles for and against sealant were written. Lots has changed, I wonder if the research would as well????



Jason

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Jason,

Thanks for the compliment on the rotted trunk. It does hold some potential, that is if it lives long enough. At this point, I'm not sure I have saved this particular wisteria stump. The big ugly circles that will never heal are one of those situations that you have to accept if you are going to grow wisteria stumps into bonsai.

The unfortunate facts are that I could have prevented this situation if I would have been more diligent in my wound sealing chores. To me, the rotted trunk wistera represents a failure. This type of decay is avoidable by using sealants on the wounds.

Hopefully, I will be able to salvage the rotted trunk wisteria. However, I do not believe it will ever reach the same potential as the one with the big ugly circle that never heals.

In regards to the research holding up, who knows.

This is one of those subjects that seems to bring the best out in everyone.

Cheers,
Paul

I agree that the rotten trunk is the better one. Why consider an age characteristic as a failure? Hit it with some minwax wood hardener to stop further rot and exploit it. While the arguement about to seal or not to seal may never end (what 7 pages now?) I doubt anybody is going to advocate sitting back and watching the tree die. I just cleaned alot of rot out of an older maple I have I may seal it off now or allow it go a little further but if it ever threatens the tree I'll do something about it regardless of what anybody else may think.

Ok maybe some clarification to avoid sounding like a total ass. There is a difference between sealing and treating so why not work on that wisteria?

I have drank to much wine and wrote this long post again. Then I deleted it in a rare moment.

Cheers

FourMileMarc said:

I have drank to much wine and wrote this long post again. Then I deleted it in a rare moment.

Cheers

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Nice save. usually in those moments I solve the meaning of life. Then forget by morning.

ron van ravenhorst said:

If you are starting a discussion like this you must sure you compare appels with appels. Not a field grown tree with bonsai. There is a difference you know.

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Really, and what exactly is the difference, besides slower growth? Can you answer this question? I can, there is absolutely no difference at all, same species, same growth patterns, same responses to environmental factors and damage. A tree doesn't magically become something else just because it is potted.

ron van ravenhorst said:

Who are we to doubt about the use of cut paste if most Japanese growers are using it on there most precious trees? They do this for decades and it works for them.

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This dog won't hunt, sorry. The Japanese also never used wire at one time, many still use a drainage layer, and many look down upon one of the great modern Japanese artists, Kimura.

The facts here still remain undisputed, no one has put forth any information that is even close to the studies and research I have put forth against the use of a sealer, all we have seen so far is opinions from the cut paste advocates, which look pretty pale against the facts presented.

ron van ravenhorst said:

Unlike scientific people they live from selling trees instead of writing about trees.
Scientists write for the money, and if you take a close look at their study's it often shows that this study mostly effect one or two species. Not enough for me.

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These researchers are professional horticulturists, foresters, arborists, and professors, motivated by truth and the research referenced is from controlled experiments, observation, and years of study. Writing about trees? Every arborist worth their salt today does not use sealant on wound and they make money caring for trees, forestry department put millions on the line every time they use techniques, and nursery owners use the information gleaned by these professionals to sell trees, I'm sorry, your logic is flawed.

Two species? One man alone quoted above dissected over 15,000 trees!

The information on this subject is almost limitless, there is so much that it is overwhelming, to ignore it is the same as shutting your eyes and claiming there isn't a sky above us.

The fact is that there is no evidence base to speak of at all to support the use of a sealant on wounds, period. However, there is overwhelming documentation by professionals in horticulture, forestry, and arbor-culture, backed by solid research going back for decades that plainly shows that sealant is not only unnecessary, but could be damaging as well.

The only amazing thing here is that people chose to ignore the facts.



Will

king kong said:

Makes me quite angry. You poor thing. Just what I thought, you dodged the questions with your rather typical arrogant manner. Leave us with a thought Mr. Pall...earn your keep. Again the subject is wound sealants and or foliar fertilizer. You can do it.

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First you claim you would debate wound sealant with Dr Alex Shig who is widely considered the father of modern arboriculture because he is wrong, then you call studies from major universities, forestry departments, and professionals in horticulture "misinformation" and now you call one of the best and most experience artists of our time, arrogant and tell him he must earn his keep.

You are embarrassing yourself. Your disrespect of people obviously far more experienced than yourself, your refusal to accept rock solid evidence from very reliable sources on a subject, and your senseless argument against documented facts without a shred of worthwhile evidence for rebuttal is making you look foolish.

Again,

There is no reason to state the obvious over and over again, so I will refrain from doing so. For those interested, the full article and supporting references can be seen at http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/misc/debunking.php



Will

Will Heath said:

Really, and what exactly is the difference, besides slower growth? Can you answer this question? I can, there is absolutely no difference at all, same species, same growth patterns, same responses to environmental factors and damage. A tree doesn't magically become something else just because it is potted.Will

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Ok, I will bite on this.....know though that for the most part I agree with you Will....

But I see a huge difference in a bonsai vs. the tree an arborist or hort.expert would work on. First would be the fact that the wounds are going to be much smaller on a bonsai as compared to a 150 foot tall tree. Cutting off an 18" branch vs. a 2" branch is huge. 2nd) would be the cut itself, a chains saw will leave a much rougher cut then knob cutters, 3rd would be the health of the tree..... a bonsai that is taken care of properly will get fertalized wwwwaaaaayyyyyyyy more that a tree in the forest, park, yard, etc... and finally would be the sealant itself. Pine pitch, or that black tar goop is going to be much different than the stuff that we use out of Japan. All of these are huge differences between bonsai and the typical tree an arborist would work with.

Will Heath said:

This dog won't hunt, sorry. The Japanese also never used wire at one time, many still use a drainage layer, and many look down upon one of the great modern Japanese artists, Kimura. Will

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Is a drainage layer a myth too?..... Kimura now has the respect of many of the old timers, infact most are his clients....

Jason

JasonG said:

Ok, I will bite on this.....know though that for the most part I agree with you Will....

But I see a huge difference in a bonsai vs. the tree an arborist or hort.expert would work on. First would be the fact that the wounds are going to be much smaller on a bonsai as compared to a 150 foot tall tree. Cutting off an 18" branch vs. a 2" branch is huge.

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It is all in the ratio Jason, take a 1/2" cut on a 1' high tree for example, same wound size as a 5" cut on a 10' tree (10x the size), or a 10" cut on a 20' tree (20x the size).

The difference between a chain saw and bonsai tools isn't that different either, thanks to the ratio again. Look at your next cut with a magnifying glass...

JasonG said:

Is a drainage layer a myth too?..... Kimura has the respect of many of the old timers, infact most are his clients....

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The drainage layer has been shown to create a perched water table which, instead of helping the pot drain, actually can prevent free drainage. In container gardening, it is now recommended not to use a drainage layer, a big change from past recommendations. Most bonsaists do not use a drainage layer, however Japanese trained bonsaists still do with no ill effects. I am still reseaching this.


Will

OK Mr. Heath , Mr.Pall was non responsive to the question let's see if you have a response. Again, Dr. Shigo's premise "So long as new parts are formed exceed the amount of wood being invaded (by pathogens), the tree will live." "All trees will be infected after wounding." Do you agree Yes or no? Let's set the stone throwing to the side and talk about a few facts if we may. I look forward to your response.

Well I have been wanting to see some conversations going, at least I got that accomplished...

In all seriousness I appreciate everyone sharing their experience and I appreciate the research cited.

The history of science is filled with those who challenged the established "facts" of the day and in time, many of those rebels were vindicated.

However, you can't simply dismiss valid results with statistically significant data without at least matching the scope of the study yourself.

If we choose to disregard evidence without a significant reason, we are in danger of becoming like the emperor showing off his new clothes.

Those who disagree with the studies Will has cited may indeed have reason to disagree and they may have discovered a variable which the cited studies did not account for.

There exists in academia a formal method for rejecting published studies. What you need to do is to conduct a study of your own, record your results and publish them in a peer reviewed scholarly journal. Anything less is and must remain anecdotal.

Milehigh, I am not in the business to publish compiled data with field tests. I pay for that service, field tests and reports. I am a nurseryman and a Landscape Architect. I am in the business to grow trees for fruit and aethetic use and to maintain them. After 40 years of doing this you learn what works and what doesn't. I enjoy it. When I see articles written that denounce and call out procedures as myths that I see work every day, tree seal and foliar fertilizer, I feel an obligation to show the other side of the coin. It is as simple as that.

Walter Pall said:

This is getting bizzarre again. With forums like this you don't need TV.

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Amen! (Never thought I'd say that word again!)

Chris Johnston said:

Amen! (Never thought I'd say that word again!)

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"Groupie"..............

Will Heath said:

The drainage layer has been shown to create a perched water table which, instead of helping the pot drain, actually can prevent free drainage.

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There are other factors besides the perched water table, and those seem to be beneficial.
When I had no drainage layer, the bottom of the pot developed a moldy goo, due to the accumulation of smaller particles at the bottom - even with instant-draining medium. I lost a few trees because of this.

Then I started using drainage layer, and the moldy goo on the bottom, disappeared, probably from better air circulation at the bottom. So, in spite of the perched water table, the drainage layer seems to work. Preventing free drainage was never an issue, when I water my trees, the water instantly drains through the entire pot. I also suspect that the perched water table tends to disappear with time, as soon as smaller particles start populating the spaces between the drainage layer. As more and more particles migrate downward, the difference between the permeability of the drainage layer, and the permeability of the layer above, slowly diminishes. So I try not to forget to add a small layer, whenever I re-pot. I tried both ways, so I am not doing it because I was told by somebody, but because it seems to create a healthier pot culture.

There is always a chance that there are other uncontrolled factores that influence the outcome, but I try to go with the best informed decision, after years of trial and error.

In case of the sealant, I use it mostly to preserve moisture, when a drastic cut is made, and there are some tender shoots in the neighbourhood of the cut. Those shoots seem to die back due to dehydration, since the water circulation is drastically decreased after a large cut. The tree gives up on weak branches and goes with the stronger ones. That's my main reason to use sealant. In case of a large tree, dehydration is less of a risk, since we are talking about big branches. With small bonsai, a few millimeters sometimes make a big difference in the water intake. In the past, wound sealant also helped me not to lose branches when accidents occurred, and a brach cracked, hanging on only by a tiny bridge of live tissue. In this case, I sealed the whole injured are in order to prevent drying out of the narrow live bridge. I lost many branches due to such accidents, until I made sealing part of my emergency procedures, in such cases.
This is less of an issue with conifers (the resin is a good water-tight sealant), more important with non-conifers.

So, to me, academic discussions are interesting, but I rather go with past experiences, when it comes to protecting my precious trees. There is no better teacher than a great loss.

I recongize the risk that I may be misinterpreting the relevance of various factors, but after the same scenario repeating itself several times, a clear pattern may emerge, and I make a choice to the best of my abilities.
BELIEVING in things is not good enough for me, beliefs are risky, because they are based on the knowledge of other people. It may be accurate, or not. It may also be self-serving, I have no way of knowing. Sometimes I have no choice, and if I have no practical experience, I have to go with beliefs, but when I have the benefit of practical experience, I go with what works for me.

Luckily for us, (and unlike space exploration) bonsai is an easy area to experiment with. Sooner or later one can figure out what works and what not.

Attila Soos said:

There are other factors besides the perched water table, and those seem to be beneficial.
When I had no drainage layer, the bottom of the pot developed a moldy goo, due to the accumulation of smaller particles at the bottom - even with instant-draining medium. I lost a few trees because of this.

Then I started using drainage layer, and the moldy goo on the bottom, disappeared, probably from better air circulation at the bottom. So, in spite of the perched water table, the drainage layer seems to work. Preventing free drainage was never an issue, when I water my trees, the water instantly drains through the entire pot. I also suspect that the perched water table tends to disappear with time, as soon as smaller particles start populating the spaces between the drainage layer. As more and more particles migrate downward, the difference between the permeability of the drainage layer, and the permeability of the layer above, slowly diminishes. So I try not to forget to add a small layer, whenever I re-pot. I tried both ways, so I am not doing it because I was told by somebody, but because it seems to create a healthier pot culture.

There is always a chance that there are other uncontrolled factores that influence the outcome, but I try to go with the best informed decision, after years of trial and error.

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I can't help but to notice that your experiences are based on using soil particles of varying sizes instead of uniform sizes of the components, in which case your smaller particles are filling in the spaces of the larger particles used in the drainage layer, actually negating the effect of a drainage layer altogether. after a few months you don't actually have a drainage layer (as commonly understood) at all.

Personally I haven't come to a conclusion myself on the use of a drainage layer, I, like many other bonsaists, never use one, so it is obvious that such a layer is not needed for a bonsai to survive and thrive in a container. After I receive the studies I requested from Michigan State University, I may or may not add this to the article on myths.

Attila Soos said:

In case of the sealant......

So, to me, academic discussions are interesting, but I rather go with past experiences, when it comes to protecting my precious trees. There is no better teacher than a great loss.

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The information presented against the use of sealants was based on experiences, studies, and documented results, not on academic discussion.

Attila Soos said:

I recongize the risk that I may be misinterpreting the relevance of various factors, but after the same scenario repeating itself several times, a clear pattern may emerge, and I make a choice to the best of my abilities.

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Have your experiences included a "control" as in trying no sealant at all, or are your experiences on using sealant only? What I like about the professionals is that they actually experiment with many substances and always have a solid control to base their findings on. To date I have never seen a controlled experiment on the number of trees and species in the ones I cited that shows sealant has any valid purpose at all.

Until then, I'll go with the facts and leave the conjecture to others.



Will

Will Heath said:

I can't help but to notice that your experiences are based on using soil particles of varying sizes instead of uniform sizes of the components, in which case your smaller particles are filling in the spaces of the larger particles used in the drainage layer, actually negating the effect of a drainage layer altogether. after a few months you don't actually have a drainage layer (as commonly understood) at all.

Will

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I use about 85% pumice, lava, or akadama - uniform -, and 15% of organic - various sizes.
So, the drainage layer eventually gets some of the organic components.
Again, this avoids the clogging of the bottom, and the medium remains instant draining. Works perfecly and improves aeration on the bottom.

In the past, I was AGAINST the use of drainage layer, but I like to incorporate my experience in my practices.

You are right, the drainage layer does change over time, especially when a tree gets re-potted at a larger intervals (3 to 5 years). Weathering of the medium is a natural occurrence.