The Mugo Pine Crawl (or how I learned to dig through nursery stock and love it).

jasonpg

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The Mugo Pine Crawl

I've been reading a good deal on here from Vance Wood regarding Mugo Pines. Over the last week, I've visited most of the big box stores in my area and a few nurseries doing the Muge Pine Crawl trying to find one that has potential. After lots of dirty digging through pots, I finally picked one up.

Just curious about a couple things right off the bat:

  • I assume pond baskets are preferred because of their drainage abilities, but will a growing box also work?
  • I'll be making my own bonsai soil, can someone point me to a good recipe?
  • I dug down in this pot to expose the bottom of the trunk, but I feel I could dig down lower ... however, I've hit lots of tiny roots and didn't want to go further. Should I stop here, or is it safe to continue digging down?
  • I'd like to remove the left-side trunk. Should I cut it at the base with concave cutters or leave a stub? Can this be done once I put the tree into a pond basket?
  • How does this Mugo look to the trained eye?

Thanks!
 

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Paradox

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Grow box is fine. Now is a good time to repot. Try not to remove too much root mass. Remove from nursery pot and cut a section off from the bottom. You can probably cut half off. Then comb out the bottom and around the edge of the rest a little bit and put in your grow box. When you repot, I would remove any soil above the surface roots so you can get a better look at the trunk.

Soil mixes are the cause of great debate and there are many ways to go. In general you want good draining soil that does not hold water but does retain some moisture. A general bonsai mix of lava/akadama and pumice with some pine bark mixed in would be fine. Stone lantern sells a lava/pumice mix that is pretty inexpensive. I have used a mixture of coarse sand, rice gravel and pine bark with success so far. You need to decide what will work for you.

Yes you can remove the trunk after putting in the box. I personally would prefer that so you can really see the trunk before cutting. I would leave a stub to prevent associated trunk die off. You can clean up the stub in a year or two.

Cant really comment on the tree with the pictures provided. We only see the top and a close up of the trunks. Can you provide a picture from the side further away after you repot so we can see the whole trunk? All I can really say is that it looks healthy.
 
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jasonpg

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Thank you. I found that Lowe's sells the pond baskets, so I picked one up, and I'll be repotting tonight per your instructions.

I feel like I haven't found the base of the tree yet, but I've run into lots of surface roots. Is it okay to cut some of those out so I can continue to dig to find the base of the trunk?
 

Paradox

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I feel like I haven't found the base of the tree yet, but I've run into lots of surface roots. Is it okay to cut some of those out so I can continue to dig to find the base of the trunk?

You can do some exploring, just be careful how far you go. I would do this before you cut the root mass in half so that if you do find a base deeper down, your not in a situation where youve removed too much.

Please Note: This time of year for repotting only applies to mugo and scots pines. All other pines shoud be done earlier in the year.
 

RKatzin

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On younger smaller trees you can take at least 1/3 of the root mass, total. Before you cut the bottom off dig down from the top till you get past the fine roots and down to the actual base of the tree where the root flare begins.

These fine roots in the upper part of the can is the result of topping off the pots with nutrient rich soil and then not deep watering the pots. The roots grow where the food is and appearently alot more stays up high than leaches down.

These are not good roots as most of them come swirling up from deeper in the pot and will create a nasty mess in a few years, but who cares if you're just giong to plant the tree in the yard as intended. For our purpose you must correct this situation and get the roots away from the base of your tree and going in the right direction pronto.

It's not too bad on the smaller size, 6-8" pots, but when you get up to mugos in 10"+ sizes make sure your dig down in there and look for what has now developed into strangler roots wrapping in layers around the trunk.

Once you've found the top of the root flare you can determine how much to take from the bottom to constitute your 1/3 total reduction. I think this is the first thing you should address with a new big box store mugo and then look at your trunk and branching and see what you've got to work with. Hope that helps, best of luck growing, Rick

PS: I've done that crawl through the mugos, been yelled at for taking them out of their pots and shaking out all the dead needles, but I've learned not to grab the first good looker in the pack. LOL
 
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jasonpg

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On younger smaller trees you can take at least 1/3 of the root mass, total. Before you cut the bottom off dig down from the top till you get past the fine roots and down to the actual base of the tree where the root flare begins.

These fine roots in the upper part of the can is the result of topping off the pots with nutrient rich soil and then not deep watering the pots. The roots grow where the food is and appearently alot more stays up high than leaches down.

These are not good roots as most of them come swirling up from deeper in the pot and will create a nasty mess in a few years, but who cares if you're just giong to plant the tree in the yard as intended. For our purpose you must correct this situation and get the roots away from the base of your tree and going in the right direction pronto.

It's not too bad on the smaller size, 6-8" pots, but when you get up to mugos in 10"+ sizes make sure your dig down in there and look for what has now developed into strangler roots wrapping in layers around the trunk.

Once you've found the top of the root flare you can determine how much to take from the bottom to constitute your 1/3 total reduction. I think this is the first thing you should address with a new big box store mugo and then look at your trunk and branching and see what you've got to work with. Hope that helps, best of luck growing, Rick

PS: I've done that crawl through the mugos, been yelled at for taking them out of their pots and shaking out all the dead needles, but I've learned not to grab the first good looker in the pack. LOL

Thanks for all the great info!
 

jasonpg

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I repotted the tree, using the instructions in this thread and also Vance's instructions from the "A Question for Vance" thread. Those two resources were very helpful.

Here is where I'm at now. I removed some of the surface roots to get to the trunk, and chopped off some of the bottom of the rootball totally about 1/3 soil/root removal. I also made cuts in three equal areas through the roots.

At this point, I'm looking for input on the direction I should take this tree. One option is to chop off the left trunk, which is the smaller of the two.

Thoughts?
 

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Smoke

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Just curious as to why you chose a tree with a wye at the soil line, with two trunks the same size in diameter and bone straight with no taper?
 

jasonpg

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Just curious as to why you chose a tree with a wye at the soil line, with two trunks the same size in diameter and bone straight with no taper?

Ouch. Sounds like I picked up a shitty tree. Damn.

Out of all the trees I found this was the best ... and I'm also very new.

What is a "wye" (sorry).

Jason
 

Smoke

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Ouch. Sounds like I picked up a shitty tree. Damn.

Out of all the trees I found this was the best ... and I'm also very new.

What is a "wye" (sorry).

Jason

I asked this question as an experiment to another thread going on currently on this forum.

I was respectful, told you I was curious and never called your tree shitty.

The OP has responed this way because someone has challenged his choice of a tree with nothing more than an inquiry.

THAT IS WHY THREADS GO SOUTH, NOT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE MEAN.
 

jasonpg

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I asked this question as an experiment to another thread going on currently on this forum.

I was respectful, told you I was curious and never called your tree shitty.

The OP has responed this way because someone has challenged his choice of a tree with nothing more than an inquiry.

THAT IS WHY THREADS GO SOUTH, NOT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE MEAN.

I'm not sure I feel about being part of your experiment ... but I didn't accuse you of calling my tree shitty. That's what I called it. Your questions did, however, seem to infer that by listing all of the negative qualities of the tree, that I made a poor selection ... no?

I also answered the question you asked ... I picked this tree because it was the best I found .. and I didn't realize the dual trunk thing was an issue. I saw a decent thick trunk and thought it would be a good one ... but after reading your question, I'm second guessing myself.
 
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jesseblunt

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I say roll with it...

You're doing the same thing I am...digging my way through this place trying to piece together years of info and experiences and reaching out for some tutoring/mentoring advice.

So you didn't pick a showcase specimen (though I would have done the same, because I've not even found anything that decent in my Mugo search this season)...use it for what it's worth. Get it potted and healthy and try things out on it. Go get some more trees and look for better taper. I've killed several trees I wish I had back so I could fart around with techniques on junk trees. Trial and error has been my only guidance until I found this place. I've been going to the beginner bonsai section and click the "last" button to go to the last thread page and started reading. Not much else I can contribute here right now, so I've gone with studying instead. Just thought I'd poke my head in here and say hey.

I really need to get with the Bonsai Club here too. You should do the same. You'll likely find the advice you seek here without all the baggage...

Seems like you're doing a lot of first time potting and training like me. Good luck and I hope this tree is a good specimen to learn on - for what it's worth.
 

jasonpg

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Thanks jesseblunt - that was a really kind post.

Maybe that the more experienced artists here forget how naive newcomers to the hobby are. I've watched countless hours of bonsai-related videos, I own John Naka's books, and I've done much reading online ... but I'm only recently (within the last few weeks) actually purchasing tree material.
 

Smoke

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Your questions did, however, seem to infer that by listing all of the negative qualities of the tree, that I made a poor selection ... no?

I didn't say you made a poor selection either. I was just curious why you made the selection you made. "You" infered you did a nursery crawl and made the best selection of the material they had to offer. My curiosity had to do with what basis did you think what you chose was the best.

Did you choose it because of the size of the trunk?

Was it the most healthy?

Did you see something in the material that made you think that this tree had so much potential that you had a plan in mind before you ever laid down the cash?

Was the branching so great that developing a compact canopy could be accomplished in a few years?

I chose a mugo pine because I am new and these are the easiest trees to make acceptable bonsai with?

I am new and repotting a new mugo pine is what I have read is the first thing to do and it is very easy to do?
 

jesseblunt

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I chose a mugo pine because I am new and these are the easiest trees to make acceptable bonsai with?

I am new and repotting a new mugo pine is what I have read is the first thing to do and it is very easy to do?

I think condescending questions are what turn threads to arguments, to tell you the truth. Whatever your intended purpose, you are coming off incredibly pushy and rude with this one...

I would say the current threads on Mugo pines are the most plentiful and closely resembling a good recent and ongoing tutorial at an appropriate season to learn something that seems to be working well for others. How's the experiment turning out?;)
 

jasonpg

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I think condescending questions are what turn threads to arguments, to tell you the truth.

Agreed. But ... back on topic.

I went through many mugo pines, and everyone but this one had very thin branching. On this particular tree, I felt a trunk that seemed thick compared to the others, albeit a double trunk tree. I selected a mugo pine because I'm a beginner, and Vance Wood is on this forum, so if I need to talk to the Godfather of Mugo, I have the ability to do that.

So .. back to the tree. I'd like to remove the thinner trunk (the left side). I'd like to get advice on doing so, and possibly turning that into a jin in the future.
 

Smoke

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All fair answers. It sounds like you have a plan to work with this tree. It will be interesting to see how you work it.
 

RKatzin

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I agree, for whatever reason, you and this tree have come together, make the best of it. Focus on health of the tree for now and let it show what it's got. I would not cut yet, but let the power of both trunks push the tree forward.

I know it's hard, but this is a starter tree and really needs to grow out for two or three years before you consider beginning any serious training. You can always cut and remove, but I have noticed that once you do you seriously curtail the forward momentum of the tree. Wait until the tree is pretty close to where you want it, then reign it in and slow it down. There's a common fear that the tree will 'get away from me', but it won't. You can always control them whenever you decide.

There's always two schools of thought. One says don't waste your time on anything less than premium quality stock. Don't try to make a silk purse from a sows ear. I'm not one of those, I'm all about sows ears and silk purses. Get your hands on as many as you can handle and get them growing, grow, grow, grow! These are like your training wheels. Use them to learn, chop em and crop em, see what happens. It's the price of your education, so how much you invest at this point is up to you,but you can lean alot from cheap trees, free is even better. You'll be so darned proud when one of them turns into an even semi-decent tree.

I still have my very first Mugo, close to ten yrs now I'd guess and Poor lil Thing is what she's been called for a long time. What a trooper! Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead! Rick
 

jasonpg

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I know it's hard, but this is a starter tree and really needs to grow out for two or three years before you consider beginning any serious training. You can always cut and remove, but I have noticed that once you do you seriously curtail the forward momentum of the tree.

Thank you. I do have one question regarding a couple areas of the nicer branch (the right side).

As you can see in the photo, about half way up the trunk are a few very thin branches (A), with no foliage, that make a circle around the tree. I believe I read somewhere that those types of branches will ultimate cause a knuckle. Should I remove all of these tiny branches completely, especially since there is a large branch on the left side of the tree directly above this circle of tiny branches?

The top of this trunk (B) has a similar problem ... many branches coming out from the same place. Should I address this issue now?
 

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RKatzin

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Hi Jason, any of that little dead wood you can clear out, it will never be there by the time you're grown out anyway. At 'B' you have the typical pine development and something to keep your eye on, but nothing you have to render immediately. Pines are slow movers and these knuckles do not develop over night. Next year you can assess the growth and thin out a few selected stems, but always maintain a good healthy head of foliage to keep the tree moving forward.

A twin trunk is not a bad way to go at all, in fact it's hard to find a good twin that is not a slingshot, which I mean it has too much trunk before the division into two. I like to see either very little of the single base trunk or two seperate trunks all together. It's a rare find and I would not eliminate one until you see if it will give you a twin.

Poor lil Thing has been raped and pillaged repeatedly, and she stands as a testiment of just how much abuse you can render upon a mugo pine. I have shown others that I have treated as prescribed and they have progressed so much more in the last four years, from potbound Charlie Brown xmas trees into full and lush pines ready to consider my options on.

To ease the passing of time, get yourself some nice Japanese Maples to play with or something that puts out tons of growth and keeps you stepping to keep up. Pines kind of spend most of their time on the back burner looking pretty. Best of growing, Rick
 
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