Another mugo attempt

I've had this guy around for a couple of months deciding what I would do, so the time is right in mid July, here it is...

I really wasn't trying so much for shape as I was for opening all the branches up to sunlight and hoping to induce back budding on the larger branches. I am hopeful I did not take off too much foliage...I really like this tree. One thing I would do differently is cut a little more around the rounded edges of the root ball and include that into my over root reduction %. Instead, as you can see from the pics possibly, there is some of the outer roots visible through the mesh of the pond basket. Not sure if that's bad or not. The base is going to be pretty nice with some time and I really like the trunk movement. I hope it survives.


--Joe

Hi Joe, Who could ask for a more beautiful place to be!

Nice looking mugo and a good job for a first run at it. Give it a season to see what she'll give you for your effort. Pic three really displays the typical mugo growth habit of over building the branches. You can begin to address these next season if you're seeing full recovery. Best of growing, Rick

RKatzin said:

Hi Joe, Who could ask for a more beautiful place to be!

Nice looking mugo and a good job for a first run at it. Give it a season to see what she'll give you for your effort. Pic three really displays the typical mugo growth habit of over building the branches. You can begin to address these next season if you're seeing full recovery. Best of growing, Rick

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Thanks, Rick. I appreciate your advice a lot. And talk about nice places to live, I would love to be in Oregon myself! I think this will be a fun tree, provided it lives, and I plan on lots of patience for sure. Thanks again for the comments.


--Joe

I really like this tree.

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Can you tell us why?

jkl said:

Can you tell us why?

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I believe the tree will live, in fact I believe you could have removed a lot more off the base of the root ball.

From the tone of jkl's query it has the sound of disapproval? That's OK, not everyone will like every tree and see it with the same eyes. One man's prize becomes another's trash. However if that is the case I would be as anxious to hear why jkl does not like the tree as much as I would like to hear why Joe does.

As for me I like the tree because I can see a lot of potential in it starting with the trunk and the shape it has. People have to realize that a nursery Mugo is not your ubiquitous pre-bonsai where you have selected a tree on the grounds of styling decisions some third person has made for the tree up to this point. Everything you will achieve from this tree will be a negotiated settlement between the owner and the tree. Vision verses reality. The problem is that with all of our books, magazines and videos too many people have lost the ability, or necessity, to look into their own hearts for ideas and imagine a future that does not necessarily come out of an image printed or digital.

Don't get me wrong I am not contrary to video demonstrations of styling of trees, I think these elements are driving the art forward in a good way. Books and magazines are exposing us to new techniques and cultural ideas. BUT----too many people are not thinking tree (thank you Mr. Miagie) they are thinking cascade, informal upright, formal upright, slanting, and wind swept. People are not being schooled on looking at the tree. Which brings up the point about this tree. I can see a good bonsai in the shape and nature of the trunk. With Mugos this is a giant step in the right direction.

I have told people over and over that the base of the tree is the place where you select the tree from. This is particularly true of Mugo Pines. An encouraging thing I am starting to see, is people coming up with nursery trees with good trunks. I have claimed over and over for years that these trees are out there you just have to look for them, but I keep hearing that they must only exist here in Michigan?

As to the pre-bonsai market: A pre-bonsai is like buying a naked lady; you know what you are getting and you will pay the price for your choice----in more ways than one. (This is for you Al) A tree from the nursery is a total crap shoot that will challenge your patience and vision just to find one. You can buy pre-bonsai especially, if you find one you really like, but don't limit yourself to this expensive and limited market where for the most part you have to trust those who sell you the trees unless you spend the money to visit their nurseries. As has been pointed out by one of our members in an earlier thread, even good material can occasionally be found at the big box nurseries. When you start closing doors you limit your opportunities.

jkl said:

Can you tell us why?

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I can absolutely tell you why. I looked at around 20 different 3-gallon mugos from several nurseries and the big box's. I did not purchase this tree the 1st time I saw it--I wanted to see as many as I could 1st, so I logged this one in my head as a potential winner for me. I decided that I was drawn to the combination of trunk shape, size and the base that I could feel below the soil level of this tree, so I bought it. In particular, I chose this one based on the trunk shape, movement. I think it has a nice taper to it. My early proposed front, which I have had for a couple of months now, has the trunk flowing nicely to the right, upward for just a moment, back to the left and then moving just a bit toward the viewer while trailing upward. Of course this is all way early...I really wanted to build around the trunk and a lot of that will depend on where I get buds to form, so subject to change.

Vance, I want to respond appropriately, but I have to get ready for work now...thanks for you thoughtful reply. I'll respond in a bit.

--Joe

jkl said:

Can you tell us why?

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I know we are worlds apart, in more than miles, but I have to say I love you style Jim, both with trees and your words. Always cut and dry, a straight shot right from the hip. LOL I don't care if you like me or not, longhaired hippie dude, but you brighten my day and I appreciate that. Rick

PS: Your trees display a softer more enduring man, so I know you're in there LOL

Hmm. I asked the question with real interest.

I'm working only from pictures, of course, but I see a tree with a taperless trunk that seems to have an odd curve in it, with much-too-fat stubby branches jutting straight out from it high in the tree. Those, I'd think, wound have to go -- and what are you left with? The smooth juvenile bark will, I suppose, cure itself, given time.

I'm NOT a pine person, but I've never found a nursery Mugo that I'd want to work on. That (probably) influences my view here.

you longhaired hippie dude

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:
Not quite. I'm a 76-year-old geezer who is on oxygen all day and night, but who still manages to shuffle out to his trees a couple times a day.

jkl said:

Hmm. I asked the question with real interest.

I'm working only from pictures, of course, but I see a tree with a taperless trunk that seems to have an odd curve in it, with much-too-fat stubby branches jutting straight out from it high in the tree. Those, I'd think, wound have to go -- and what are you left with? The smooth juvenile bark will, I suppose, cure itself, given time.

I'm NOT a pine person, but I've never found a nursery Mugo that I'd want to work on. That (probably) influences my view here.



:
Not quite. I'm a 76-year-old geezer who is on oxygen all day and night, but who still manages to shuffle out to his trees a couple times a day.

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I understand your position but I believe that a good portion of his trunk is buried under all that new soil. I am going to ask him about that the next time he logs on. At this point you don't know how or where this tree is going to back bud but the tree is worth working on if for no other reason than to reduce it down to a Shohin. I know from where you are located most of your exposure to Pines is with JBP's and maybe a native of some sort so your opinion of the bark is skewed.

No Pine has the bark of a JBP, but that does not mean that no Pine is capable of being a bonsai but JBP. Mugo bark once, the tree is confined to a container tends to develop quickly and in interesting shapes and forms. Once the Mugo is in training mode for a couple of years it's needles become extremely short, something JBP is not capable of producing without starving the tree as is the custom with some methods of cultivation. Also the Mugo, under training will produce needles that tend to align themselves like those on JWP, like upheld hands holding a tea cup. The Mugo is not a JBP or JWP but it tends to have some of the traits of both and in my opinion, has enough if its own traits that it can stand on its own without excuse.

There is a good possibility that the full extent of the base is buried under the soil I threw on top and some of the uppermost roots at soil level. I tried to cut a decent amount of the circling roots on top and factored that in to my overall root reduction. I think I was a little nervous about removing too much, both foliage and root-wise.

What is the best way to tell when I have reached the true base of the tree? I guess that's my question when it comes down to it. I am hesitant to accidentally go too far when I know this is a long term process and I can do more a year down the road.

I actually disagree with another poster's statement about the trunk movement. I think that is it's best quality and this being a very young tree that has not been given any need to back bud to this point, but now it does, will change things a lot, too. I also left the lowermost branch, as ugly as it is, to help any future taper issues and to help the base expand and thicken. I'm just going to let that one grow freely as a sacrifice and see if that does anything.

The foliage on the mugo is possibly my favorite quality and I gained that perception from the trees I have seen Vance produce. I like the JWP qualities of this species.

It may be hard to fully appreciate a tree from a 2D photo and I may well be delusional in thinking there's potential here. I am new to this discipline compared to a lot of you, so maybe a video would help here. I may try to see if I can do that--remove some of that upper layer of soil and post a 360 video.

Truly, thanks for the replies to this point. I think it's a good discussion. Now where's my camera.

--Joe

I think you've got a good tree there. I think the biggest mistake is in prejudging a mugo. Until you've grown a few out and seen what they can do they kind of have that 'yikes' look. Smoothe bark, long needles, oversize branches. As Vance has stated they do come around with a few years of good care. As was mentioned before also, it's hard to get a good pic that really shows the innerds of the trees, there's just so much foliage and it all stacks up in a pic. A good camera makes a world of difference.

Jim, I was refering to myself as the longhaired ol hippie, and I think it's wonderful that we can meet and chat in spite of our personal differences, on trees and lifestyles. You know the Native Americans had a place for grumpy old men, they made them chiefs. LOL

Bonsai on a discussion forum is hard to do for a young bonsai person. Not young in age, but young in bonsai. Threads such as these will produce much back and fourth without actually adding anything to the story. People will add to the story based on their experience but seeing any outcome from that exchange is years down the road.

Progressions, over a number of years, actually end quite soon. The poster shows his pictures, all the hard work, all the experience and technique. People instantly see what the poster can do and what the material has produced. For the most part there is not much more that can be said except a few thank yous and a few likes.

I find this thread to be sort of....hmmmm

first, will it live?
second, how many of those heavy branches will have to come off?
....Will it back bud?

When some of this has happened after a few years then it will be a thread to get excited about.

RKatzin said:

I think you've got a good tree there. I think the biggest mistake is in prejudging a mugo. Until you've grown a few out and seen what they can do they kind of have that 'yikes' look. Smoothe bark, long needles, oversize branches. As Vance has stated they do come around with a few years of good care. As was mentioned before also, it's hard to get a good pic that really shows the innerds of the trees, there's just so much foliage and it all stacks up in a pic. A good camera makes a world of difference.

Jim, I was refering to myself as the longhaired ol hippie, and I think it's wonderful that we can meet and chat in spite of our personal differences, on trees and lifestyles. You know the Native Americans had a place for grumpy old men, they made them chiefs. LOL

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I agree Rick, I think it's a very rough sketch at best right now of an actual tree. There's a lot to happen over time and I'm just happy to have fun with it and see if what I think I am seeing actually comes to fruition down to the road.

Smoke said:

Bonsai on a discussion forum is hard to do for a young bonsai person. Not young in age, but young in bonsai. Threads such as these will produce much back and fourth without actually adding anything to the story. People will add to the story based on their experience but seeing any outcome from that exchange is years down the road.

Progressions, over a number of years, actually end quite soon. The poster shows his pictures, all the hard work, all the experience and technique. People instantly see what the poster can do and what the material has produced. For the most part there is not much more that can be said except a few thank yous and a few likes.

I find this thread to be sort of....hmmmm

first, will it live?
second, how many of those heavy branches will have to come off?
....Will it back bud?

When some of this has happened after a few years then it will be a thread to get excited about.

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Very well put Smoke. In some ways I like to use these threads as an archival medium as well as a way to get critique on a tree to this point. I am new in this as you are aware and hope to add to these threads with new pics and questions, etc. a year from now, 5 years from now, whenever. I have read many of your threads, and many other others' threads, and really enjoy the progressions and info over the course of several years that some like yourself have posted.

Will it live and, if so, what kind of back budding will occur are the biggest questions for sure. I know this thread is nothing to get excited about for many, you're 100% valid. I think us newbies like to put our stuff out there to see if we're on the right track or not and what we can do better. Thanks for being one of those who has contributed that kind of info many times.

--Joe

Smoke said:

Bonsai on a discussion forum is hard to do for a young bonsai person. Not young in age, but young in bonsai. Threads such as these will produce much back and fourth without actually adding anything to the story. People will add to the story based on their experience but seeing any outcome from that exchange is years down the road.

Progressions, over a number of years, actually end quite soon. The poster shows his pictures, all the hard work, all the experience and technique. People instantly see what the poster can do and what the material has produced. For the most part there is not much more that can be said except a few thank yous and a few likes.

I find this thread to be sort of....hmmmm

first, will it live?
second, how many of those heavy branches will have to come off?
....Will it back bud?

When some of this has happened after a few years then it will be a thread to get excited about.

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Not to mention, Vance gave you another free quote because of this post. You're welcome.

Really as Hmmmm as this thread my seem it is necessary to start somewhere? I'm glad that there are some individuals willing to attempt to grow a Mugo Pine. Go on Youtube and search for Mugo Pine and Mugo Pine bonsai. You will find a few of these videos that will demonstrate that there are people trying to do Mugo Pines that do not succeed with them, mostly because they have no clue what to do with the way they grow.

We already know that there are hundreds that reject Mugos simply because someone else says they can't be done. So now the question remains. If I can grow Mugo Pine as bonsai why can't they? Am I so special? I don't think so, there are many that will tell you I don't have a clue what I am doing. I don't claim that I am a great artist or even a good artist but I can make a Mugo into the semblance of a bonsai and keep it there for years.

My work has been called Mediocre by people that no longer grow bonsai but at one time, were the embers burning bright in the eyes of some well known bonsai masters. They are all gone, I'm still here pumping out my mediocre bonsai and sharing what I have learned without reservation to any who will listen.

You can of course take the adventure into the Pre-bonsai world and spend yourself into bonsai success (my be) and enjoy doing it. You can spend the real big bucks by venturing into the world of Yamadori and get into some really fine and astronomically expensive material and have a good deal of fun and wind up having the best collection money can buy. But-----what if these options are not open to you?

I do not mean to get on anyone's back or to be overly critical I am simply passionate about this tree and I believe it deserves more than lip service or condemnation from people who think they know---- but don't know and sadly don't know that they don't know. That's a head full to think about.

jedge76 said:

Not to mention, Vance gave you another free quote because of this post. You're welcome.

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Actually there was two....

Vance Wood said:

Really as Hmmmm as this thread my seem......[snip]


I do not mean to get on anyone's back or to be overly critical I am simply passionate about this tree and I believe it deserves more than lip service or condemnation from people who think they know---- but don't know and sadly don't know that they don't know. That's a head full to think about.

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I think you mis understood my post....I mean any tree, not just mugo pines. I just think there is a lot of what if's on this tree and it has been built into a fine bonsai already and so far we don't even know if it will be here by Christmas or if it will even wish to play in the future. That is all.

(I guess I gotta buy a freakin mugo from Lowe's just so I'm in the know..ya know?)

Smoke said:

I think you mis understood my post....I mean any tree, not just mugo pines. I just think there is a lot of what if's on this tree and it has been built into a fine bonsai already and so far we don't even know if it will be here by Christmas or if it will even wish to play in the future. That is all.

(I guess I gotta buy a freakin mugo from Lowe's just so I'm in the know..ya know?)

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Believe me I did not mean to challenge you in any way shape or form. In essence you are correct we don't know if the tree will survive, I am pretty confident that it will if it is not fooled around with any further, I have done far worse with no problems. But in my view this is the issue. It is one thing that I can keep them alive and growing but can I teach others to do the same? So; I am on trial as much as all the others that are trying it.

I think this 800 mile gap in latitude may have some say so in the future of this tree. Your on par with mid Oregon, we are 200 miles from Death Valley. I know hundreds of bonsai people in the American west and North west, I have yet to see a mugo in an exhibit or a collection. I don't know why. Maybe out here there is not much affinity for the species when Black Pines are so easy to come by and with good bonsai traits for less money.

I also am not sure on repotting in summer here when temps are 106 today, 109 for Tuesday, and an average of 104 for the last three weeks in a row. I am sure you can't treat these as an olive or pomegranite here can you?

Smoke said:

I think this 800 mile gap in latitude may have some say so in the future of this tree. Your on par with mid Oregon, we are 200 miles from Death Valley. I know hundreds of bonsai people in the American west and North west, I have yet to see a mugo in an exhibit or a collection. I don't know why. Maybe out here there is not much affinity for the species when Black Pines are so easy to come by and with good bonsai traits for less money.

I also am not sure on repotting in summer here when temps are 106 today, 109 for Tuesday, and an average of 104 for the last three weeks in a row. I am sure you can't treat these as an olive or pomegranite here can you?

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You might be at 104 today, Smoke, but we're a good deal cooler at 4,500 feet of elevation. I doubt you guys had frost in June.