The Pitch Pine Experiment

pitchpine said:

Pitch, we don't have virginiana up here. Not in the wild anyway.

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I just checked P. virginiana's range and it overlies that of pitch pine almost exactly except for up north where pitch pine extends into NY and southern Maine...interesting. Funny, I always think of Virginia pine as a southern pine and pitch pine as a northern pine, but they're really both Mid Atlantic pines.

For some additional information:

Pitch pine

My favorite quote under special uses:

Pitch pine was an important tree during the days of wooden ships and iron men.

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Update

Things have been progressing.

I have had some setbacks, mostly of the two legged kind. My twin boys have a hard time understanding that my trees are not their sand box. They unearthed about a third of the cuttings and a few of the seedlings. I also had couple turn brown within about 2 weeks of taking the cuttings.

I lost a couple of the seedlings to damping off. I have been spraying with Daconil and so far I have not seen any other problems.

The totals as of right now are; 19 seedling cuttings and about 20 seedlings. The goal is to have about 10 of each going into next year.

Not a bad success ratio so far!

My own 11-month old seedlings seem to have hardened off their spring growth. Hoping if I feed em hard they might push another round before summer is over.

Laura

jeanluc83 said:

Things have been progressing.

I have had some setbacks, mostly of the two legged kind. My twin boys have a hard time understanding that my trees are not their sand box. They unearthed about a third of the cuttings and a few of the seedlings. I also had couple turn brown within about 2 weeks of taking the cuttings.

I lost a couple of the seedlings to damping off. I have been spraying with Daconil and so far I have not seen any other problems.

The totals as of right now are; 19 seedling cuttings and about 20 seedlings. The goal is to have about 10 of each going into next year.

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My only comment is that the idea of making a cutting from a seedling was started with Japanese Black Pine - this results in getting buds very low on the trunk - which over time builds mass at the base of the tree. This in turn creates better taper. With a Pitch Pine - this is not needed - because even a young seedling; say one or two years old - can be cut back and then the trunk will pop with many new buds all over the trunk.

What I do is wire the young Pitch Pine seedling once it is 1/4" in diameter and then grow it out until the wire bites in a bit. Remove the wire and see what you have. If the trunk and movement are pleasing - let it keep growing. If not re-wire and try again. Once the trunk is 3/4" to 1" I remove from the ground and then prune it and wire it again.[At this point the trunk's shape is defined - now I start wiring some of the basic branches]. Some I keep in grow pots - others I put back in the ground. I have a few that are about 2" in diameter using this technique. If I can be patient - I will wait for a 4" to 5" diameter trunk on some of these.

So I think what you are doing is great - but the idea of making a cutting from the young seedling and then dipping into rooting hormone was based on a black pine seedling. The black pine seedling and the pitch pine seedling don't react the same......Good luck with your pines....Tom

Thanks for the info. I would love to see some of your trees.

The reason for doing seeddling cuttings was two fold;

First I didn't know any better. There is very little information on growing pitch pine and no information on growing from seed.

Second lower bud break was not the main goal. The idea was to establish lateral roots early on.

Mostly I like to tinker and since I have not come across anyone who has done seedling cuttings with pitch pine I figured why not give it a try myself.

pitchpine said:

Yeah, I've seen those down in Shenandoah, and they do look remarkably like Pitch! Three needles, spiny cones, similar bark. I don't think they put out adventitious buds the same way Pitch does, though.

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Isn't Pinus virginiana a two needle pine?

Scott

Shoot, you're right! It's been so long since I've been around them, I totally forgot, lol

markyscott said:

Isn't Pinus virginiana a two needle pine?

Scott

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update

The seedlings have grown quite well over the summer. At this point I still have about 10 of both the cut and uncut seedlings. In the early spring I will transplant them into their own containers. I am curious to see the difference in the root systems of the cut vs. uncut seedlings. This has been a fun project. I haven't decided if I will start another batch next spring or not.

Here are some pictures of the seedlings. The uncut ones are in the clementine box. It is interesting to see that the cut ones are not all that far behind the uncut ones in terms of development.

There is a difference between the two....the cut ones have thrown lateral shoots (now just buds) very low on the seedling. As these grow they will create a bulbous base which gives you the desired taper. The uncut seedlings don't have the low bud break. It is less of an issue with Pitch Pine - just because they bud break so easily. They are all coming along very nicely......Tom

Jeanluc & Pitchpine

Thanks for the inspiration. Because of you guys, I bought an ounce of Pitch pine seed last month to start my own spring of 2015. Actually I will plant them next month and leave them out to stratify.

I also planted a flat in autumn of 2013 with seeds of Pinus edulis - 2 needle pinyon, Pinus bungeana - Lacebark pine, Ostrya virginiana, Diospyros virginiana - American persimmon, and ginkgo seeds harvested from the huge old ginkgo in the courtyard of the Frank Lloyd Wright Studio in Oak Park, IL. I only had maybe 10 seeds of each, so they all went into the same flat. I now have about 5 or 6 of each pine and a dozen ginkgo. Next year I will separate them and proceed, should be easy, 2 needles - its edulis, 5 needles its bungeana, serrated leaves its Ostrya, big smooth leaves its persimmon, and ginkgoes are obvious.

I am also seriously thinking about starting some Jack Pine, as it is a pine that scoffs at cold weather. It would be nice to have pines I don't have to protect from my occasionally sub zero winter.

I am also looking for Pinus monophylla - Single needle pinyon pine seed. It is supposed to be slightly more cold hardy than Pinus edulis. My go to source - Sheffield Seeds did not have stock this year, but said they would next year.

Thanks for the inspiration. Both of you have gotten excellent results. Edit - added photos and a little text.

Have you though of halipensis? It makes nice bonsai but not sure how it will do in your area...
Good for California.

On the advice of Tom Tynan I may do a batch of Table mountain pine Pinus pungens. Seeds are available from sheffields at about $16 a pack (38 seeds +/-). I'm cheep so I will probably just do another batch of pitch pine. My pitch pine seeds were $7 shipped for 100.

Also for those who do not want to grow from seed It appears that the New York State Tree Nursery has bare root pitch pine seedlings available at a very reasonable price. I'm not sure if they will ship out of state though.

Here is the start of next year's crop of seedlings. I decided to collect my own seeds this year. I collected about a dozen cones just over a week ago. So far one is about two-thirds open the others haven't started to open yet. From the one that's open I've already gotten around 50 seeds. If I get even half as many viable seeds from each cone I should be well supplied for next year.

For anyone planning on collecting their own cones I would recommend bring a good pair of gloves. The cones are very spiny. Also pitch pine do not drop their cones like some other pine do. Several years of cones can be seen clinging to the branches. A pair of shears is useful for cone removal.

opening cones

"So far one is about two-thirds open the others haven't started to open yet. "


If you want to open the other cones, put them in the oven at 150 to 200 degrees until they open. This replicates natural serotiny.

sdavis said:

"So far one is about two-thirds open the others haven't started to open yet. "
If you want to open the other cones, put them in the oven at 150 to 200 degrees until they open. This replicates natural serotiny.

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I done it by just setting the cones on a dry frying pan, you can watch the cones open that way and not "over cook" the seeds. You just need to heat the outside of the cone, essentially melt the resin, and the wings of the cone will open up.

Neli said:

Have you though of halipensis? It makes nice bonsai but not sure how it will do in your area...
Good for California.

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P. halipensis is less winter hardy than bungeana, and bungeana is only marginally hardy here. My winters are quite cold -27 C (-17 F) was last winters low, and it has in the past gotten even colder. P. bungeana should be good to about -23 C (-10 F). I can provide smaller specimens with winter protection, keeping them near freezing. Hopefully by the time they get larger I will have a better arrangement for winter shelter or global warming will have warmed us up one more climate zone. (my location went from 4b to 5b over the last 30 years of gardening).

Thanks for the tip. I'll give them another couple of weeks to see if they open on their own.

Here are updated pics of my pitch pine. The first two are about 14 months from seed, the third was collected in August 2013.

Laura

Laura, Thanks for the update. They look very healthy. You have done well.

All of the cones I collected have opened or started to open. I think I was just a little early with my collecting.

It seems that the colder weather lately have given my seedlings the blues, well the purples at least. As far as I can tell this is common especially for seedlings this time of the year. I'll probably be moving them into winter storage this weekend or next.

jeanluc83 said:

Laura, Thanks for the update. They look very healthy. You have done well.

All of the cones I collected have opened or started to open. I think I was just a little early with my collecting.

It seems that the colder weather lately have given my seedlings the blues, well the purples at least. As far as I can tell this is common especially for seedlings this time of the year. I'll probably be moving them into winter storage this weekend or next.

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that would be cool if they kept that color as they matured