Zuisho Japanese White pine

This is a lovely (huge!) Zuisho JWP. Another fabulous piece from Don Blackmond/Gregory Beach Bonsai!!!
I don't think I'd be anywhere near where I am skill-wise without the wonderful trees I've been able to work with thanks to Don and the amazing material and generous affordability of said material.

This is going to be somewhat of a challenge to see how much of the angle I can get out of replanting. If I can achieve it, the away side actually has great potential for a top jin, and using the 2 large branches as a mostly one sided canopy to the left of the trunk.
The other side is equally good, but doesn't have the potential to be as "wild" looking as the away side. It would still be a wonderful tree, but more of a calm and peaceful looking piece.

I do not think that it can be used from any other angle, as the only other angle would place the large winding root straight at the viewer.

I may have to wait to determine the front, until after I repot it in the spring. Perhaps I can do some minimal wiring of branches this winter, to pull them down, which will happen no matter what side I wind up with.

Sequence starts from the back around to the front, the actual front straight on is in the next post.
I would probably use a little off straight on, back towards pic #5 last one in this post.

OK, for some reason it doesn't load the photos in the order that I loaded them, and won't let me sort them. So back to front - it's #4,#3,#2,#5,#1. Can anyone tell me how to move them around?

This pic is the straight on front shot of this tree. As you can see this has quite an angle going on, and will be interesting to see how much of that can be corrected. I'm quite sure I can get enough to get the "front" to work well. I have lots more photos that Don shot, I'm attaching a few of those as well, to give some scale. The foliage is so amazing, and the bark is super.
An exciting tree for sure. You can see why I'm not rushing into anything that would be difficult to undo, as there is loads of potential in this tree.

Just a visual of what I mean by doing a one sided sort of idea, this Ryan Neil tree has the flavor that I'm talking about. I didn't want to lift the picture of the tree off his site, so here is a link where it is shown and talked about.

http://bonsaibark.com/2011/08/15/elevating-the-art-of-bonsai-in-the-west/

Excellent material! I personally would look at W.P.'s upright naturalistic conifers as one source of inspiration for this type of material. Looking forward to development updates.

Judy why would you want to hide that gorgeous root ? I love the planting angle in the second and the third picture in your first post. Either of those would be my choice if it were mine.

ed

I like pic 3 and it a nice piece of material

I'm not planning on hiding the root at all. It is a large part of the massive appeal of this tree. Whatever gave you the idea I was planning on hiding it???

I have seen many nice WP trees, this has a very natural feel to it already, so it will be styled in a naturalistic vein.

So ok, for those of you who like the second and third photo, this is the conundrum of the tree. I would like to use this side, but do not know if it's actually viable. Already the pot is up on chocks making the angle far less than it is currently. But even with those chocks, we are looking at a tree that is moving far away from the viewer. That is what the planting angle question thread is about.
Sooo - now that you've seen it, I'd like to continue the discussion please.

I'm going to ask what is probably a really stupid question but I just have to. Have you thought about cleaning out some of the deadwood at the base of the trunk where it meets the roots and bending it a little more upright? Nice Pine by the way!

Vin said:

I'm going to ask what is probably a really stupid question but I just have to. Have you thought about cleaning out some of the deadwood at the base of the trunk where it meets the roots and bending it a little more upright? Nice Pine by the way!

Click to expand...

The tree at the base is about 5-6" thick at that point depending on which way you measure it. I would not try it, and don't think anyone would risk such a lovely tree doing something that probably would not work in any event.
Maybe you thought it was not so huge, but as big as it is, it would be impossible.
And the deadwood is beautiful, I would not want to dig it all out in any event.

Am I the only one who is confused as to which picture you are referring to? Maybe. Can you tell me (us) which image (based on the actual file name, not the order it appears) is the view that you are considering as the front, but which leans too far away? I think I know, but I want to be sure.

You have a chopstick in the pot which is confusing me, as that often is used to indicate the front.

Chris

#3865.
I don't know why it's taking my pictures out of order, I loaded them correctly, but then it moves them. And not in numerical order so I'm sorry I can't fix it.

3865 is the side I'd like to try to use, but am unsure if it'd be workable. Between 3869 and 3871 would be the side that leans toward that I'd use.

Sorry about the stick, I keep them in the pots in winter to be able to quick check for water needs.

Thanks Judy!

First glance, I prefer either 71 or 69 compared to 65. Not a big fan of the lower trunk/base in 65, at least based on the photo. Fully realize though that it may look very different in person.

Chris

Is it moving away from the viewer in 3869? I think I like that as the front as I think that would make for the nice slanted style tree that it wants to be. That is if I'm seeing it correctly. The deadwood still appears visible, correct? At least in part.

Something like this? Pics lifted from Google search. Btw, awesome tree Judy, looking forward to seeing what you do with it, thanks for sharing.

JudyB said:

I'm not planning on hiding the root at all. It is a large part of the massive appeal of this tree. Whatever gave you the idea I was planning on hiding it???

I have seen many nice WP trees, this has a very natural feel to it already, so it will be styled in a naturalistic vein.

So ok, for those of you who like the second and third photo, this is the conundrum of the tree. I would like to use this side, but do not know if it's actually viable. Already the pot is up on chocks making the angle far less than it is currently. But even with those chocks, we are looking at a tree that is moving far away from the viewer. That is what the planting angle question thread is about.
Sooo - now that you've seen it, I'd like to continue the discussion please.

Click to expand...

I'm in the group who are for that as a potential trunk...what an amazing tree to have on your hands. That base rocks! I would think the set rules are guidelines...and to hide the beauty would be wrong. I say...add other guidelines/rules that apply and it will be a tree which will cause admiration to where you took it. I will enjoy following your work on this tree!

If you listen to the discussion about the first tree in that show, you'll hear that (1) Colin thinks the front should be different than it is, but (2) Kathy Shaner suggested the current front that Colin doesn't like. So, where does that leave you? Two long-time respected bonsai professionals believe two different fronts should be used. Interpret that as you will regarding rules and guidelines.

Problem is we don't see the tree from the current front so it's tough to form an opinion.

Judy, I have to be honest with you... I don't like the nebari. If the trunk wasn't so straight, I could live with it, but as it is, well, it's just incongruous.

Don offered me this pine last summer, and I have to tell you, I passed on it.

But, now that you own it, I will give you my thoughts that I saw in the tree when I was considering it last summer:

Option 1: do a trunk chop like Sawgrass suggested, making it into a large informal upright. The only thing is rather than doing a "chop", I'd try to airlayer off the top. Once the airlayer was taken off, then carve back to the proper location. Zuisho airlayers fairly easily. I would get experienced help with the airlayer.

Option 2: riskier, but higher payback... Airlayer the entire tree to eliminate the root. The tree then becomes a formal upright. Perhaps a less risky option would be to bury root, and let the tree ground layer itself. If you remember John Kirby's Kokonoe White Pine that was originally grafted on JBP, and then grew it's own roots? You could do that with this tree.

Can you tell if the tree was originally grafted? It probably was. It could have been started as a cutting.

If this were my tree, I'd go with Option 2, and try to induce new roots on a ground layer.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Continue to play with the planting depth and angle. I suspect you can change the soil level by 45 degrees in one repotting, so don't let the current soil level dictate anything about the final position. I'd try to minimize the base or select the front in a way that minimizes the difference between the base and the trunk, but we've already discussed that. Once you have the best front with the right trunk movement, you'll be able to get the planting angle you want.

I wouldn't try layering it, but I may trust someone with success to do it! Maybe you'd have to send it to Julian Adams for a year or two!

JudyB said:

I'm not planning on hiding the root at all. It is a large part of the massive appeal of this tree. Whatever gave you the idea I was planning on hiding it???

I have seen many nice WP trees, this has a very natural feel to it already, so it will be styled in a naturalistic vein.

So ok, for those of you who like the second and third photo, this is the conundrum of the tree. I would like to use this side, but do not know if it's actually viable. Already the pot is up on chocks making the angle far less than it is currently. But even with those chocks, we are looking at a tree that is moving far away from the viewer. That is what the planting angle question thread is about.
Sooo - now that you've seen it, I'd like to continue the discussion please.

Click to expand...

Well Judy, you wrote this in your first post causing me to think you wanted to hide the root. "I do not think that it can be used from any other angle, as the only other angle would place the large winding root straight at the viewer. "
Maybe I misconstrued the meaning of your words.

ed

I really can not see the stove pipe straight part of the upper trunk. In fact it looks like movement every few inches, especially the last 3 inch at the top has a pretty good bend in it. I would also refrain from chopping anything, but that's just me baby !

ed

My first thought after seeing the pics is similar to that of Brian. I think you can easily change the planting angle on this tree to one that brings the apex closer to the viewer. That and some good wiring to bring the apex even more toward the front and you should be good to go.