japanese white pine Longus armus

Jaberwky17

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I'm not sure it needs a lot of change

I'm no expert, but it seems this tree's best feature is that long branch. Why not a semi cascade in a crescent pot? Trim a couple of branches, develop pads over time, but simply by slightly pitching the planting angle and finding a nice large crescent pot this would look pretty nice.
 

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Adair M

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This tree HAS The potential to be an amazing cascade.

Have you taken s look at the nebari? I couldn't see it in the pictures.

By tilting the tree a bit, you could get the long branch headed down. Using rebar would give you extra leverage when bending. However, be extraordinarily careful, as white pines trunk/branch joints are weak and can split easily.

This is where having a workshop with someone like Peter Tea who has worked with a lot of white pines can really be beneficial. Or any of the other guys who've apprenticed in Japan. They know how far they can take them.

Edited to read: "HAS" potential instead of "had" potential.
 
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Nybonsai12

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This tree had the potential to be an amazing cascade.

Have you taken s look at the nebari? I couldn't see it in the pictures.

By tilting the tree a bit, you could get the long branch headed down. Using rebar would give you extra leverage when bending. However, be extraordinarily careful, as white pines trunk/branch joints are weak and can split easily.

This is where having a workshop with someone like Peter Tea who has worked with a lot of white pines can really be beneficial. Or any of the other guys who've apprenticed in Japan. They know how far they can take them.

Had potential? As in that potential no longer exists? Or was it just typo?

I'll get a better picture of nebari. I am not positive but believe there is a graft at the soil level and it narrows just below. Even if that's not the case there isn't some great root spread just below the surface and I believe the surface is where it is widest.

My work with white pines or any species is not extensive, but I know what you mean about the joints splitting easily. Working with my Eastern WP I snapped several branches pushing it too far. I'd hate to make a similar mistake here. I feel like this tree does lend itself to a cascade but I also know they are hard to pull off well.

I'd like to do a workshop but have little time to be away from home. I know the benefits of working with a pro can really pay off, just not in the cards at the moment. Thanks for the input Adair.
 

Adair M

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Sorry, the auto-correct on my iPhone 6 is sometimes too aggressive!

It HAS potential to be a great cascade.

Are you a member of a club? Any workshops coming up?

Finding exactly what's going on with the nebari is essential. If the roots are buried down below the soil line, you need to dig down and find them. A trunk emerging out of the soil with no sign of surface roots is a major fault. You really can't pick a front or style until you know what the nebari is doing.
 

Nybonsai12

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Sorry, the auto-correct on my iPhone 6 is sometimes too aggressive!

It HAS potential to be a great cascade.

Are you a member of a club? Any workshops coming up?

Finding exactly what's going on with the nebari is essential. If the roots are buried down below the soil line, you need to dig down and find them. A trunk emerging out of the soil with no sign of surface roots is a major fault. You really can't pick a front or style until you know what the nebari is doing.

Haha, kind of what I figured about the typo. im in a club but won't be participating much if at all in 2015, so no workshops in the foreseeable future.
I know you provide sound advice on trying to correct flaws and make the best possible trees. I don't believe there is any great nebari but will try and get pics soon.
 

Nybonsai12

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No nebari to speak of, just huge swollen graft site I assume.
 

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Adair M

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I'm not sure you've found the nebari. If your fingers are touching the roots, it appears to be buried another inch down. And even then that's only one side.

You need to find the nebari, and move away the surface soil covering it.

And, that soil needs to be replaced with proper bonsai soil, starting with a half bare root repot this coming spring.
 

edprocoat

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I'm not sure you've found the nebari. If your fingers are touching the roots, it appears to be buried another inch down. And even then that's only one side.

You need to find the nebari, and move away the surface soil covering it.

And, that soil needs to be replaced with proper bonsai soil, starting with a half bare root repot this coming spring.

Yes, that and cut that long arm off. You have a great tree without it, just waiting to amaze you.

ed
 

Nybonsai12

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I'm not sure you've found the nebari. If your fingers are touching the roots, it appears to be buried another inch down. And even then that's only one side.

You need to find the nebari, and move away the surface soil covering it.

And, that soil needs to be replaced with proper bonsai soil, starting with a half bare root repot this coming spring.

Sorry for confusion. It may be hard to tell but that graft union is swollen to twice the size of the trunk below. its hideous. Is there any point to finding the roots of whatever it was grafted on to? I'd have to raise it up to see those roots, making the Adam's apple from hell graft in the middle of my trunk. Unless there is a better way I'd assume it would have to remain buried. Yes a major flaw, but how would one remedy?

Repot is planned for in the spring.
 

Adair M

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Well now... That does present a problem!

I really don't want to make you mad with what I'm about to say, but that shouldn't have been a surprize. I mean, always check out the nebari before you buy.

Alas...

About the only thing I can think of to fix this is to try to do what the commercial growers in Japan do: wire the lower trunk! I'm going with the assumption that the lower trunk is JBP. Wire it really tight, feed it well and in five years or so, the trunk might just swell up for you. (The Japanese do this when the trunk is MUCH younger.)

If they used another pine as stock for the graft, I don't know how well that would work.
 

Nybonsai12

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Well now... That does present a problem!

I really don't want to make you mad with what I'm about to say, but that shouldn't have been a surprize. I mean, always check out the nebari before you buy.

Alas...

About the only thing I can think of to fix this is to try to do what the commercial growers in Japan do: wire the lower trunk! I'm going with the assumption that the lower trunk is JBP. Wire it really tight, feed it well and in five years or so, the trunk might just swell up for you. (The Japanese do this when the trunk is MUCH younger.)

If they used another pine as stock for the graft, I don't know how well that would work.


No worries Adair, I'm not mad about it. Didn't get to check it out in depth before buying. I got this at club holiday auction, into it for $100. Knowing what I know now, I'd probably still buy it in that situation for that price. I of course want to make great trees, but won't sneer at working any piece of material.
I'm gonna wire soon, repot in spring, enjoy it just the same.
 

sorce

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Longus Armus....
Bulbus Assus!

I like your attitude NY. Just for it, a solution will present itself!

Sorce
 

JudyB

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Someone over on IBC was asking similar questions, and were advised to graft roots onto the tree. Possible? I don't know, but throwing it out there. I have to say that exposing the flaw is worse than not seeing a nebari. Is it going to be perfect? No, but you won't be hating on it every time you see it.
I would leave it buried, and try to ground layer it with the window nicking method, so the tree will not potentially fail, and if you are very lucky you may get new roots at soil level. Just what I'd try. And I wouldn't cut the arm off, looks to be something good to be done with it. You have options, keep them open for now.
 

Nybonsai12

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Thanks Judy. I'll probably give the nicking method a try in spring at time of repot. I have a few maples to do this on as well as they are missing roots on one side of the trunk. All in a day's work! It will be worth it if I get lucky and roots pop on this tree, but kind have no qualms just keeping it buried in the event of failure.

The long arm will not be removed and will be used in the design.;)
 

Adair M

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Judy, I think the window method will only work for Kokonoe and Zuicho white pines. This appears to be neither of those.

Now, root grafts would work.
 

Nybonsai12

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Oddly enough I currently have JWP seeds in the fridge.:cool:
 

Nybonsai12

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I greatly needed to get my mind off some stressors in life at the moment so I went after it. I'll always second guess my styling of trees but I think I'm happy enough with this one at the moment. Or at least I was just happy to escape with this tree for a bit.

Quick teaser from my window this AM, better pics when time permits. It's not as disorganized looking as it appears here. But for now, I'm off to take my wife to the hospital for surgery.
 

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milehigh_7

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