Questions I never asked because they might make me look stupid

Ok, so I have been doing this a long time but have limited in person training. Something I have gotten a lot more of lately and I am working on getting a lot more in the near future... But I have a few questions about certain trees and techniques I have never quite figured out the answers too and generally didn't press to ask because i guess I thought it would make me look like an idiot? At this point, I know what I know... I think I am a pretty smart guy and I am to a point in my life where I no longer care much what others think of me... So, here goes:

1- those Satsuki Azaleas sporting multiple different color blooms on one tree- Are they mostly just one specific type or variety of tree that naturally pops white blooms on one branch, pink on another... or are they grafting multiple trees together to get the different blooms? Or, is it a little of both? I always assumed it was a specific variety as I have even seen pics where a few blooms would be divided right down the middle- completely white on one side, and dark pink on the other... But this is one of those questions I never got a straight answer to. If it is a specific variety,please tell me which one! I have only found it listed as "indicum" or something comparable ( http://www.bonsaifocus.com/webshop/sub/10/10/bonsai.html ) which I view as a very general name for many Japanese varieties. Am I just too dumb to get it or are others confused there too? I want one desperately, but cannot seem to find one in America that I can order for less than a couple thousand dollars and I am not a buyer at that price point. Not even freaking CLOSE.

2- those twisty little Junipers they mass produce in Japan with the corkscrew Jin branches and sharis twisting around the trunks like a candy cane... Yes, I have read Smoke's posts about how to create them- thanks Smoke! Damn near every cutting I made last year has been wired and twisted to within an inch of it's short life now!- but do people ever wrap up a bundle of them to make something happen a little faster? Like take 3-4(+?) trees, twist them all around each other, Hell tie 'em into knots if you want, wrap them in raffia or something to hold them in place and then Let em grow til they fuse? If not, is there a reason why people aren't doing that? I have a bunch of Shimpaku cuttings and a few regular old Sargent Juniper cuttings (kissing cousins as far as Junipers go, but the sargents grow thick a lot faster) I was thinking of wrapping a few Shimps around with one or two larger sargent's to add some girth, let it grow out for a couple years to fuse it, kill off the coarse growth of the regular Sargent varieties, leaving plenty of dead wood opps... Getting some sort of gnarly old looking monster eventually! Any chance of this working out? Sound like mad science, something new or something people are already doing? Is it "cheating"? Are juniper too slow growing/ thin barked to heal together and fuse in a way that they would look convincing?
Again, these guys are generally over priced in relation to MY WALLET when I find them (I guess a trip to Cali is needed to come see Smoke's buddy!) and creating is more my thing than buying something already created... So, I am interested if people have attempted something comparable to what I described before I waste a bunch of trees by tying them all together!

Just kind of thinking out loud about two completely random, unrelated subjects I guess... Anybody got any answers for me... Want to tell what a buffoon I am... or perhaps ask that question they haven't asked for fear of being thought a fool? Please, pile on!

Eric, I always thought that was just an oddity that happened in the flowering of the plant. I have seen them where the flowers have slightly darker pinks and lighter pinks then almost white, if you look closely they are not completely white more like a faded pink. I had one years ago that would some years show more intense pink color while other years it would have almost white blooms alongside lighter pinks blooms.

I have fused Junipers as well as Elms and Ficus. I posted about it here several years ago and was treated like a pariah for bringing it up. lol Its not a very popular subject here at B-Nut! Currently I am trying to fuse a clump Trident I bought, actually it was fused at the base but I clamped it together 2 inches higher to try to fuse it more. I want it to look more like a thick based multi-trunked tree. Probably not the best idea but it will be unique. If you do fuse juniper remove the bark at the area you want to join if not it will fuse but will be weak at the joint and can separate, this is not a problem with Elm or Ficus ass they actually seem to weld together. I think its that the bark is thicker on junipers.


ed

Can't help ya with the azalea question I know zero about them. I have fused ficus with just a drop of wood glue then let'em grow. I know you can graft juniper so I don't know why fusing them would be a problem. Get a few and do some experiments. Record what you did on each and post the results. So much has been learned by just doing it.

Way to go!

I think those perfectly split Azaleas are grafts. Seems there is no other way.

If folks put Junipers on random hunks of deadwood, surely fusing is possible.

Sorce

I'm pretty sure the azaleas are not grafted. My first though when I saw one was that it had to be a chimera - two genetically distinct cell populations in one organism. In animals it can be the result of two separate zygotes fusing, but in plants it's often the result of a mutation.

Looks like it's not uncommon in azaleas:
http://www.walterreeves.com/gardening-q-and-a/taber-azalea-flower-chimera/

Not positive this is what you meant but no graft here as far as I know.

Nybonsai12 said:

Not positive this is what you meant but no graft here as far as I know.

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Yes, that is one example... These types of blooms clearly are not grafts, right? How about this one?
Looking closely at the blooms, they seem to look exactly like the Gumpo I have... Normally Gumpo are white OR pink in my experience, not both on the same tree... So, if this is Gumpo, I tend to believe it must have been a graft of some sort? Unless... It is just some genetic mutation as mentioned above? So then this is just a freak occurrence? A coveted mistake? Seems there are a lot of these "mistakes" out there for something not intentionally done... I should be easy To fuse a couple together to make my own, and I have made a good number of decent sized cuttings of the Gumpos...

edprocoat said:

Eric, I always thought that was just an oddity that happened in the flowering of the plant. I have seen them where the flowers have slightly darker pinks and lighter pinks then almost white, if you look closely they are not completely white more like a faded pink. I had one years ago that would some years show more intense pink color while other years it would have almost white blooms alongside lighter pinks blooms.

I have fused Junipers as well as Elms and Ficus. I posted about it here several years ago and was treated like a pariah for bringing it up. lol Its not a very popular subject here at B-Nut! Currently I am trying to fuse a clump Trident I bought, actually it was fused at the base but I clamped it together 2 inches higher to try to fuse it more. I want it to look more like a thick based multi-trunked tree. Probably not the best idea but it will be unique. If you do fuse juniper remove the bark at the area you want to join if not it will fuse but will be weak at the joint and can separate, this is not a problem with Elm or Ficus ass they actually seem to weld together. I think its that the bark is thicker on junipers.


ed

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Any pics of your juniper?

This is my satsukis"Eiken" and "Kaho" (I think)...no grafts. Mostly white blooms but small numbers of pink/rose and mixed colors as well.

As far as the juniper question, I've never heard of anyone doing it, but I'm not sure why. Sounds like a pretty cool experiment.

Thanks for all the responses so far... Glad I wasn't the only one unsure how the Azaleas work exactly. LOL

Eric Group said:

Yes, that is one example... These types of blooms clearly are not grafts, right? How about this one?

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Still unlikely to be a graft...you've got one or two rose pink blooms mixed in with the much more plentiful white...it's genetic

Dav4 said:

This is my satsukis"Eiken" and "Kaho" (I think)...no grafts. Mostly white blooms but small numbers of pink/rose and mixed colors as well.
View attachment 68331 View attachment 68332
As far as the juniper question, I've never heard of anyone doing it, but I'm not sure why. Sounds like a pretty cool experiment.

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Thanks Dave!

Dav4 said:

Still unlikely to be a graft...you've got one or two rose pink blooms mixed in with the much more plentiful white...it's genetic

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So, if made my own by grafting... Is that "cheating"?

The longer I do bonsai, the more I realize there is no "cheating". It either looks good, or it does not look good. Typically, it just takes time and good horticultural technique to get good looking stock. If you can twist together a bunch of junipers and it looks good, you have created a good bonsai. If it looks horrible, you probably won't want to show it, but maybe you've learned something for trying, and you'll modify the technique. Problem is, we only have so much time, and can only produce so many "generations" of material. So experiment, but grow some traditionally alongside the experiments so you don't lose 5 years going "all in" on a failed technique.

Multi colored flowers on azaleas are mutations, hybrids, and cultivated varieties. Not likely grafts. Interestingly, (Bonsai Today #41-42?) had a great article on dominant vs. recessive flower colors on satsukis. White is recessive, and branches with white flowers need to be protected, while red-flowering branches need to be held back and pruned out. Otherwise, over time, a tree that has a good mix of flower colors will eventually become all red.

Eric, it is a wise man who acknowleges his ignorance!

There are hundreds of different cultivars of Satsuki azalea. Some naturally have different colors of blooms all over the tree. On some trees, a branch may have been grafted on to have a particular color flower to add to the effect. I think one of Bill Valavanis's trees was grafted to add a red branch on a tree that otherwise had white and pink flowers.

I spent a day with Rick Garcia back in January. He knows more about azaleas than anyone I know. He can tell what color a branch will bloom just by looking at what color(s) the leaves turn when they yellow in the fall!

About the shimpaku:

Jim Gremel (more commonly known for his excellent copper wire) produces these twisted up shimpaku. I think he uses Kishu and/or itoigawa. Give him a call on how he does it. He is also the source for Atlas Cedar bonsai.

Along the lines of Brian's comment about recessive branches, some books on satsuki discuss which branches to use as a source of cuttings so the daughter plant retains the multi-color flowers of the parent. Apparently if you take the cutting from a branch with red flowers, you most likely will not have multi-colored flowers in the daughter plant.

Eric Group said:

Any pics of your juniper?

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No Eric I only started taking pictures of my Bonsai when I started posting here. Before then I never really gave it a thought. Since then I have many times thought I wish I had a picture of this or that one, I actually had about 8 over the years that I really wish I had taken pictures of. It seems like a no brainer now but I took my first picture after joining B-Nut and seeing pics other people put up. The juniper was nothing special, made a twin trunk out of 2 skinny Builders Square plants labeled "Juniper". It worked out ok as the both were more or less one sided. The right side was about 3 inches shorter and I bent both over to the right, lol. It was unique though.

ed

We'll this morning I went ahed and wrapped a couple juniper cuttings around each other! Figured it was time to go ahead and just do it! I have a bunch of cuttings from last year and could not believe how many roots they made in one year! Hopefully I didn't hurt them in the process, but I was just using two small ones as a test pilot. We will see how it turns out. Took a couple pics, will try to get them up later.

Eric Group said:

We'll this morning I went ahed and wrapped a couple juniper cuttings around each other! Figured it was time to go ahead and just do it! I have a bunch of cuttings from last year and could not believe how many roots they made in one year! Hopefully I didn't hurt them in the process, but I was just using two small ones as a test pilot. We will see how it turns out. Took a couple pics, will try to get them up later.

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Mind if I join in on this project?
I think I'm going to take some cuttings this spring and tie four of them together with zip ties or glueless tape. Plant them in the ground and forget, hopefully getting ×4 the growth in the same amount of time!

I also want some seedlings to try a fusion project with (The one where they take mesh and make a trunk shape and line seedlings around it and tie them down).