Ground growing

Cypress

Shohin
Messages
401
Reaction score
14
This is the notching Neli and Adair were talking about...photos lifted from Jonas' blog:

Wow, so much great info in this thread, especially as I am looking into starting a growing bed of numerous species.

But let me get one thing straight, this notching method and the pictures you showed to demonstrate it... This is to simply heal the scar of the removal of a sacrifice branch (or trunk you're chopping down to develop taper) but at the same time you can keep the sacrifice branch on? Contributing to fattening the trunk still but with the scar healing more efficiently?

Sorry if I missed something, just read 6 pages lol. My brain is a little overloaded. Thanks!

-Mike
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
this notching method and the pictures you showed to demonstrate it... This is to simply heal the scar of the removal of a sacrifice branch (or trunk you're chopping down to develop taper) but at the same time you can keep the sacrifice branch on? Contributing to fattening the trunk still but with the scar healing more efficiently?
It is to expedite callusing, by keeping the sap flowing in the area. It also helps prevent the area below from drying up and causing a dead spot.
 

lordy

Omono
Messages
1,537
Reaction score
370
Location
central Maryland
USDA Zone
7a
Here is an older pic of a trident that Boon did the V-cut on. Look closely at the branch on the left and you can clearly see the V and the callus has begun to form. I am pretty sure the cut was made in 2009, and I couldnt see the scar from 4 feet yesterday. Not even sure exactly where it is on the tree anymore to be honest. The opposing branch was notched the same way the following year.
 

Attachments

  • bonsai May 2010 008.jpg
    bonsai May 2010 008.jpg
    202.8 KB · Views: 283
  • Boon V cut pruning 2010.jpg
    Boon V cut pruning 2010.jpg
    183.1 KB · Views: 281

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Here are a few Chinese quinces I dug. Eventually the big one may warrant its own thread.
First is a shot from when I bought it in 2006, and second shot is when I dug it after two rounds of 4 years in the ground.
What I learned, is that it had a fairly fibrous foot system, and big roots didn't run too far; unlike the cutting I'll post up next.
I'm not too pleased with the trunk movement, but I'll spend this year making a plan...
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    238.1 KB · Views: 233
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    339.9 KB · Views: 239

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
The cuttings had long heavy roots and no fine feeder roots. To do it again, I'd get a good fibrous root system developed first for a couple years, then plant it out. Which is what I'm doing now.

As an experiment, I planted the one in the blue pot with akadama and lava, the one in the white crackle pot in lava, bark, and turface. They're otherwise pretty similar. It will be fun to see what the roots so over the next year.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    371 KB · Views: 234
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    214.8 KB · Views: 230
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    348.8 KB · Views: 235

Tieball

Masterpiece
Messages
3,099
Reaction score
3,174
Location
Michigan. 6a
USDA Zone
6a
[QUOTE="Brian Van Fleet, post: 186022, member: 1681"

Kathy said it more succinctly last year, simply that we need to chop our stock down low every year or two. I'm there.[/QUOTE]

CHOP...even if still trying to develop trunk diameter?
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Yes. Taper is just as important as diameter.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Sure, grow a new leader each time, just cut back to it, and don't allow long sections of trunk to remain. That Chinese quince in the yellow pot is a perfect example. If the three obvious trunk sections were half the length they are currently, it would be a cool bonsai. Now I'm going to need to cut it back pretty far to begin improving it...like into the first section, and starting over for the next 5 years.

This Chinese elm is a good example of better chopping. The top will actually be pruned back to the first node on the shoot once it pops; making each section progressively shorter. From the front, it has taper and movement, from the side, you can see the three chops, healing on the back.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    355.6 KB · Views: 211
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    401.2 KB · Views: 208
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    354.7 KB · Views: 196

drew33998

Masterpiece
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
1,286
Location
Jacksonville, Fl
USDA Zone
8-9
Brian, Instead of chopping back every year for taper, can you grow out sacrifice branches if you have enough movement in the trunk to increase the thickness from the trunk up to the "sacrifice branches? Or would it just be easier to grow the leaders and chop every year until you have the trunk you want, then grow branches. I am talking about deciduous trees.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Brian, Instead of chopping back every year for taper, can you grow out sacrifice branches if you have enough movement in the trunk to increase the thickness from the trunk up to the "sacrifice branches? Or would it just be easier to grow the leaders and chop every year until you have the trunk you want, then grow branches. I am talking about deciduous trees.
Two critical points I learned from Al on growing out d-trees in the ground. Game-changers, and yours for free:
1. Keep all the small shoots on the trunk viable, but small, so when you dig a d-tree, you have some small internodes ready to develop branches.
2. When you chop and the next leader develops; cut it to the first node, so you have a close-in bud to use as a branch (point #1) and another to run long to form the next section of trunk.

Another point that almost everyone who grows d-trees in the ground:
3. Grow a trunk in the ground, and start over growing branches when the trunk is finished.

But, give it a shot and post it up...
 

Tieball

Masterpiece
Messages
3,099
Reaction score
3,174
Location
Michigan. 6a
USDA Zone
6a
Thanks Brian. The chopping each year makes sense. I'm also keeping any really low to the ground sacrifice branches the develop to help the trunk thicken. In my head as I chop I get concerned, because, as I understand, branches won't grow from a healed over area. More chops....less branches.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Thanks Brian. The chopping each year makes sense. I'm also keeping any really low to the ground sacrifice branches the develop to help the trunk thicken. In my head as I chop I get concerned, because, as I understand, branches won't grow from a healed over area. More chops....less branches.
If you're worried that more chops = fewer places to bud; why are you keeping more sacrifice branches which will need to be cut off, leaving scars that may not bud?

Sacrifce branches really shouldn't be used as "final" branches.

My approach; right or wrong, is to use as few sacrifice branches as will do the job; ideally positioned to the back, so I have fewer scars to close later.
 

Tieball

Masterpiece
Messages
3,099
Reaction score
3,174
Location
Michigan. 6a
USDA Zone
6a
I'm just confused. I think will stay that way as I muddle my way around growing trees in the ground. There is so much information that varies regarding growing in the ground. I understand the differences. I think I keep asking questions to get opinions and learn from the experience of you guys with a lot more knowledge on bonsai growth. In the end, or I should say right now while growing, I just need to pick a path and stick with it for awhile....rather than changing strategy frequently.

The sacrifice branches I use right now are very low on the trunk. Not in an area for future branch development. Just for trunk fattening below their points. I was more concerned about the points up higher where chopping would happen to build taper. Most branches up higher today, on my trees growing in the ground, are in areas that will be eliminated with a chop well below their point of growth. I'm using that upper growth to fatten the trunk. I think I'm growing fat diameter at the base, character in the middle and a fast growing top bush growth that will all be removed at a certain point to begin the taper.

I suppose I could always thread graft a branch through a healed area. If a branch was needed. There's got to be a lot of healthy sap flow in those areas in order to do all that healing. The trees I talk about are all American Elm. Base trunks vary by tree but range from 2.5" to 3.5" in diameter at the soil level. I've read about just letting trees grow unattended to reach trunk diameter. However, an American Elm, just left to grow unattended produces a utility pole evenness at the bottom and middle. Perhaps there is something about this area of growth that I misunderstand. I'm working on it and appreciate your patience as I learn.
 

Tieball

Masterpiece
Messages
3,099
Reaction score
3,174
Location
Michigan. 6a
USDA Zone
6a
That bushy growth at the upper part of the trees is left alone. I believe that leaving it alone will help with the base growth and thickness. The top growth reaches about 10' in height. This growth is a year after a significant reduction from what was another 10' height. I believe it is working right in building thickness rings at the base.

The trees at 10' will eventually be cut down to about 15" or less. Probably less...like around 10-12" realistically. Chops are planned to be at a strategic point where there is a bud forming the next line of the trunk.

From your experience....keeping in mind American Elm, in 5B climate, trees.
I understand that root pruning is in Spring, at bud swell, before bud opening. When the buds take on a glossy, wet looking reddish color.

What about top cutting....chopping severely? Is this best done after the first set of leaves have hardened? Or. Is this best done during the winter dormancy....before bud start?.....when the trees are outdoors doing nothing for winter.
 

Tieball

Masterpiece
Messages
3,099
Reaction score
3,174
Location
Michigan. 6a
USDA Zone
6a
My approach; right or wrong, is to use as few sacrifice branches as will do the job; ideally positioned to the back, so I have fewer scars to close later.

The snow will be gone soon and I'll be able to examine my trees. I get what you're say....keeping the sacrifice branches on the back. I have not heard it put that way before...it does make sense though.

I'll need to have a talk with my trees so they cooperate more. The trees don't always pay attention to my wants. However, I have not exactly viewed low growing branches with keeping them in the back thinking. Something new.

One observation of my ground growing American Elms is that the trees heal quickly.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Post a few photos when things thaw out and I'll show you what I'd do if they were my trees in the ground.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Messages
13,961
Reaction score
45,901
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
8A
Here is the trident from a post above. First bonsai pot for this one, and it went pretty smoothly except a front root at about the 7:00 position; which was too high and contained too many fine roots to remove this time. It was mossed over and should be able to be reduced over the next year or two.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    318 KB · Views: 136
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    289.7 KB · Views: 140
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    348.2 KB · Views: 142
  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    276.5 KB · Views: 130
Top Bottom